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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Raymond James Norris who wrote (17875)	6/22/1998 12:55:00 AM
From: Chris land	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Raymond, <<The Paraclete "shall glorify me" and will "testify of me." Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed testify of Jesus (pbuh) and did indeed glorify him and raise him and his mother to their well deserved stations of honor and piety and even made it an article of faith for every Muslim to bear witness to this.>> Muhammed did not recognize Jesus as God incarnate. Muhammed was not born again, and saw no need for it. Muhammed was against the Christian church during his time. Muhammed was an epileptic who conned people into thinking his seizures were the direct result from having conversations with God. Muhammed did not have his eyes upon the kingdom of God, he really only wanted somehow to unite the Arabs Muhammed did not know any god but one of judgement Muhammed is most likely in a place of torment this very moment Chris

To: Raymond James Norris who wrote (17875)	6/22/1998 2:07:00 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 39621

First, let me say thank you. You have specified in your reply a lot of information in which you base your belief on. I respect that. You have included a lot of information in your response, and if you may grant me, I will respond to it, piece by piece. First of all, this response by another is accurate. Muhammad does not fit into the verse you specified or other versus you have mentioned: Raymond, <<The Paraclete "shall glorify me" and will "testify of me." Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed testify of Jesus (pbuh) and did indeed glorify him and raise him and his mother to their well deserved stations of honor and piety and even made it an article of faith for every Muslim to bear witness to this.>> Muhammed did not recognize Jesus as God incarnate. Muhammed was not born again, and saw no need for it. Muhammed was against the Christian church during his time. Muhammed was an epileptic who conned people into thinking his seizures were the direct result from having conversations with God. Muhammed did not have his eyes upon the kingdom of God, he really only wanted somehow to unite the Arabs Muhammed did not know any god but one of judgement Muhammed is most likely in a place of torment this very moment Chris But let's go further...... John 14:16 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Is Muhammad abiding with us forever? This verse implies an eternal ominpresent existence. John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: When Muhammad testifies of Jesus Christ, is his testimony in harmony with the entire bible? (ie - Jesus is the only way to be saved) John 16:7-14 - 7: Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8: And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9: Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10: Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11: Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12: I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14: He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Verse 9 says "believe not on me". It refers to Jesus being the savior of the world and the only way to be saved. Does Muhammad tell us this? To reinforce about Jesus being the one and only savior, John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Does Muhammad glorify Jesus? Does he profess exactly who & what Jesus said he was. If he does not, he is calling Jesus liar! In regard to your number 3) The Holy Ghost was already with them: In the above verses we see that Jesus (Pbuh) says, "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." The comforter can not be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost (according to the Bible) was "with" them already (and even quite active) long before the coming of Jesus pbuh) himself and then throughout his ministry. The Holy spirit has always been present as you say, in the Old and New Testament. The Holy Spirit came upon people of the earth periodically in the OT, but Jesus promises us that the Holy Spirit would dwell with us in mass and live on the earth with us when he left us. There is no inconsistency here...... Holy Spirit was present always, just in a different way in OT and NT. I'll close for now until I hear from you on the above. Let's take one step at a time in our approach and I'm sure the truth will be apparent... Steve PS- FYI - The Gospel of Barnabas is not a canonized book of the bible.

To: Raymond James Norris who wrote (17875)	6/23/1998 1:31:00 AM
From: MSB	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Mr. Norris,........... Raymond, I've been following the discussion (and at times - disgusttion) for a few days now, and I gotta tell ya, that was a heck of a post. I truly enjoyed reading it, because, as a believer in Jesus Christ, I've always been a little curious about Islam (not to the point that I would want to convert, or even consider it for that matter), and just what the differences were and why so much dissent between the two religions. I hope, before I forget, that you'll continue to stick around, not because I'd like you to be converted even though I believe it IS the true way, but because I think many could learn of the differences between such differences. I'm no brainiac by any stretch of the imagination, so I couldn't even begin to address the points you brought up, but it is easy to see from the get-go why there seems to be such clear distinctions between those religions who believe that GOD is the one and only. Before I completely lose you, I'm curious, do the people who practice the Islamic Faith (what are they known as?) have some type of experience when they come to some understanding of truth, such as that experienced by those born again, or is it simply a way of life without any noticeable thing happening as if to separate one point in time from another? I hope my question didn't completely lose you. Perhaps somebody else knows what I'm trying to say and can phrase the question better. To expound or perhaps bring up entirely another point I may have tried to make previously, doesn't it seem that the more we divide the truth, the more complicated it seems to become. I'm reminded of a verse which also makes mention of a verse regarding children and that is the one about suffer not the little children, but let them come unto me, or something to that effect. For the Bible to become clear to the believer, I believe that it is the Holy Spirit which makes the Bible's message clear to the born-again believer like explaining the difficult to a small child. I think so much of what we've made Christianity out to be, in perception or in truth, is a bunch of gobbly-gook. After reading your post I thought to myself, "If I've got to become a scholar to know GOD, I'll never make it." I wonder, do we need to know so much? BTW, I'm sure you've noticed that even among the believers there are varying personalities in the Christian faith from the meek to the warrior and I'm pretty sure this also applies to the faith of and in Islam. With regard to the response you made to Chris Land about a response he made to somebody else, well, ya got to know the latter somebody to love him or despise him as the case may be. Like I said, hope you'll not let the level of sometimes childish responses dissuade you from continued participation. Truly, a very interesting and informative post not to mention well written, if I may be so bold to say. Mike (periodically reading, rarely speaking) And yes, in case anyone has noticed, I'm a bit behind. My apologies for the cut and paste job, but SI has cut me off twice tonight already, and I'm just not that fast a typist. Not to smart either, come to think of it. :-)