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Technology Stocks : Voice-on-the-net (VON), VoIP, Internet (IP) Telephony -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: SteveG who wrote (879)7/2/1998 3:01:00 AM
From: Joe NYC  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 3178
 
Steve,

Thanks for the detail response RE: viability and reliability of ADSL. Assuming it will work for at least some people, it may still offer an inexpensive interim solution for higher bandwidth.

Joe



To: SteveG who wrote (879)7/2/1998 1:29:00 PM
From: Ray Jensen  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 3178
 
Hi Steve, <ADSL will be a telco Vietnam, far worse than ISDN was.> Can I plagarize that line someday? I think the extent that statement becomes true will depend on how widespread xDSL becomes over long copper pair loops (more than two or three miles from a central office).

<First, rough estimates are that 40% of the existing copper plant won't support any form of ADSL.>
That sounds about right. My telco owned ISP confirms that guesstimate for their proposed DSL rollout:
public.pacbell.net

<telcos don't know WHICH 40% will NOT support it. They can't even regional this. It might work OK for me, but it may not work for either of my next door neighbors.>
Yes, distance is the big, but not the only obstacle. The 16,000 ft. maximum range is mentioned in the above link is the big limiting factor. Digital signal attenuation takes over after that and the signal becomes too weak. Noise on adjacent cable pairs drowns the digital signal and it becomes a bit error on the other end. The quick, crude way to extend DSL on copper beyond 16,000' becomes part of that Vietnam syndrome you mentioned: install DSL repeaters. For a mass deployment, a very bad move. Of course, if DSL demand is big in a distant serving area, it justifies placement of a Digital loop carrier system with the ability to provide derived DSL services over short copper loops. The distance issue becomes mitigated, but this again takes substantial time and $$.

<xDSL killing load coils (placed to make the phone lines "cleaner" by "removing" copper's high frequency carrying capacity) have been installed across the country. And records have rarely been kept documenting which lines have load coils, and WHERE they are (often buried).>
For ADSL, load coils are almost a non-issue. First, load coils are only present on voicegrade copper pairs that serve customers located 18,000' or more from a central office via copper pairs (less than 25 percent of customer lines). More and more of the long, loaded copper pair loop plant is replaced by digital loop carrier as the loaded copper pair loops are used up. The DSL announcement I mentioned above (like other DSL deployments using similar technology) restricts availability to customers that live no more than 16,000 ft from a central office, so, see how load coils are not applicable? They simply would not be present on copper loops serving customers less than 18,000 ft from a CO. Even if DSL technology did permit transmission to customers on copper loops beyond 18,000 feet, it is a normal thing for telcos to determine this and de-load pairs. This is done on a daily basis for HDSL to provision T1 on copper pairs out to 30,000 feet, when HDSL repeaters (doublers) are installed every 10,000 ft or so, and loads are removed from the two HDSL pair. All telco outside plant assignment records and location records show load points by cable pair. You de-load by cable pair, so removal of loads on a pair for a digital service will not drastically affect an adjacent loaded pair for analog voicegrade service. Buried load coil cases? Well, there may be a few out there, but that is a rare species as far as I know. Even if the copper pair cable is direct buried, telco construction practices since the 1970's universally specify placement of a manhole, vault, or above ground crossbar on a pole stub for mounting load coil cases. Regardless, load coil cases are always installed at 6000 ft (+ or - 200') intervals, and I've never had trouble finding, designing, building, or removing them. The problem with loads is that in long copper pair loops, there is often a lack of spare cable pairs these days for digital services, and technicians end up having to de-load one pair or two pair at a time, instead of de-loading an entire group of 25 clean pair that is reserved for digital services.

I don't have much to add about your other conclusions. I agree that ADSL on existing copper pair telco networks on a large scale could get very messy. The one type of xDSL deployment that telcos might have more success with is a fiber to the neighborhood architecture, where the copper loop is only say 2000' to the home at most, with no bridge tap. That would remove many of the transmission and installation obstacles to a high volume of DSL customers, but again, we probably won't see this on a large scale for some years.

For the question of reliable ADSL service, if the service can be installed and pass an initial performance "soak" test, my guess is that it would follow the patterns of other telco provided services, which is in the 99+ percent average availabilty range.

Would I sign up for ADSL as described in the link above? Very doubtful. Cable modems are coming to my area within the next year for a $49 monthly flat rate. A separate topic!

Ray.




To: SteveG who wrote (879)7/4/1998 8:16:00 PM
From: Frank A. Coluccio  Respond to of 3178
 
Steve, in response to your reasons why DSL will not fair well, I'd like to point out a few things for clarity, and add my views concerning the DSL vs Wireless discussion.

First, Ray J. is right, in that most subscriber pairs do not contain load coils today. Load coils, or "loading pots" as they were once called in a collective sense, were and still are used on longer metallic circuits. Most notably, in the past, between central offices as trunk circuits prior to short-haul carrier systems, and to subscriber locations far away from serving central offices.

Their purpose is not so much (if at all) to suppress higher frequency hum, rather to flatten out the audio response (frequency versus attenuation) of copper pairs once they exceed a certain distance. The inductance in the load coil is used to counteract the natural capacitance of the twisted pair line, and the fidelity of the audio product is improved dramatically (typically from d.c. to 3.8KHz, or 4KHz, or 5KHz or 8KHz, etc., depending on the inductive values of the coils, and their linear spacing intervals).

This is done, however, at the expense of "cutting off" higher frequencies beyond those just mentioned in the parentheses above. But it has little if anything to do with 60 cycle or high-frequency hum suppression, although if what you meant by that was the frequency cutoff I alluded to, then I stand corrected.

But that was yesterday's technology in response to yesterday's needs. Today, these tend to get in the way of ISDN, T1 services, and other higher speed services such as xDSLs and digital loop carrier systems. But they are not the _real_ impediments to deploying DSL today in normal subscriber situations that many in the press have made it out to be.

The real problems, once the distance criteria are satisfied, instead, tend to be dirty copper, i.e., unbalanced pairs, proximity to power line influence and noisy neighboring circuits, pairs with slight leaks to ground, swinging opens, etc.

>>In addition, xDSL will NOT work in any bundle...which terminates in the million plus current DLCs (digital loop carriers).<<

This is absolutely true concerning extant DLCs that were placed into service until recently. The most recent of these loop carrier systems, however, are optically fed by SONET Rings and are beginning to incorporate (or have options to incorporate) DSLAM/concentrator functionality, supported by high-speed SONET feeds from the central office. In these scenarios, they may perhaps be the best positioned of all to deliver DSL, since they will be far closer to the subscriber, as I believe Ray also mentioned, which would have the effect of obviating some of the perils you've so justly pointed out.

Beyond the ability to incorporate DSLAM functionality, I might add, newer (DLC-equivalent or substituting) access technologies are also incorporating DSP techs to support IP and ATM services including voice, complete with SS7 hooks, right at the pedestal point, or at the serving area interface. In fact, WCII's own P-MP employs an over-the-air form of ATM delivery, similar in purpose.

Concerning Winstar's P-MP offering, I think some clarification should be made:

>>As the obvious attractive alternative, the buildout of broadband digital backbones underscores the need for fast, reliable and inexpensive digital broadband local loop solutions. Broadband fixed wireless such as Winstar, provides fiber quality BER, OC3 bit rates (155Mbps, using P-MP technology) to enterprise customers.<<

While I too am eager to see this technology take off, a number of caveats should be mentioned here. One is the need for line of sight, or at least optimal sighting of the receiver with respect to the transmitter. And distance, as in DSL techs, plays a role here too. The other point I'd like to make is that the full OC-3 component is not available at all times to all individual users, just as Cable modems do not avail themselves at all times to dedicated access speeds when others are in contention for the same bandwidth. So, whereas the aggregate speed of the P-MP may be 155 Mbps, the actual allocated b/w to any user at any time may be a function of statistical derivations.

On the other side of the coin, however, WCII's P-MP offering may very well serve as the collection vehicle for DSLAMs in multiple campuses and office parks within the effective range of the transmitter.

I don't believe in all cases it's going to be easy to deploy homogenous technology solutions. I think that's clear to see. I think that tomorrow's networks will be a quilt employing many discrete techs, heterogeneous in nature, as I've begun to point out here, and as FON has suggested, however indirectly, with its proposed ION offering.

Comments are welcome.

Regards, Frank Coluccio