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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: O'Hara who wrote (18742)	7/3/1998 10:11:00 AM
From: Raymond James Norris	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Do you know who He is who searcheth the reins and hearts? You asked for it...now what excuse have you been trained to reply to this? 2 Problems I see with your position. First: Time after time, Jesus (Pbuh) repeats over and over again that he cannot do anything without God's help. He reiterates that to the Jews when they accuse him of being God. John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." Here Jesus (Pbuh) makes it clear he has no personal initiative but that of the Father. He cannot do anything of himself without the help of God. John 8:28-29 "...I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him." Again, we have evidence that Jesus (Pbuh) does his Father's Will. That is to say, Jesus (Pbuh) could say "your sins are forgiven" not because he had that power, but because God gave him that power and allowed him to do so. Remember, when the Jews asked Jesus (Pbuh) who could forgive sins but God, Jesus (Pbuh) replied to them "Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins..." He said to the paralytic, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. A second problem with your interpretation of this verse is that Jesus (Pbuh) said to his people: And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 Now what did he mean here if on the other occasion he meant to say that he was God? "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." John 14:28. The Father is greater than Jesus (Pbuh) yet you try to assert that the father is Jesus (Pbuh)? Furhter, by your own admission, there are no explicit statements where Jesus makes it clear that he is God. The best verse you have to submit is one where Jesus (Pbuh) says he can do something that God does. Yet, that is no different than forgiving sins. Jesus (Pbuh) could do anything if God willed him the power. If Jesus wanted us to worship him, why would he not say it? Why would he not ask of the worship? Why would he hide it? Is it supposed to be "firgured out" by the reader? In Islam, the most important thing above all is to worship none but God: to never adjoin partners with God. The Muslim views the Christian as breaking this most important law (the first Commandment) when they place Jesus (Pbuh) equal to God, even though he never said to be. The Muslim believes in the religion of Jesus (Pbuh) but views mainline Christianity as a religion about Jesus (Pbuh). That is to say, if the best verses you can bring to me to prove your case that Jesus (Pbuh) is God is only those verses written by Paul or John, you only prove the case that Christianity has evolved into what people have said about Jesus (Pbuh), not what Jesus (Pbuh) himself said. What I find curious is you continue to avoid the "contradictions" with a 10 foot rod. How do you explain the thousands of errors in the Bible? Are they all small miscopying? Look at Titus 1:12. If you ever take a logic course, you will inevitable come across this verse. It's the classic model of a "Meaningless statement" or "Empty Reasoning." It's a Paradox. At Titus 1:12, Paul quotes a Cretian and says: "One of themselves, even a prophet of their own said, The Cretians always lie." Now think about it. Paul then says in verse 13, that the statement is true. The statement was spoken by a Cretian who said that all Cretians are liars. Is he lying? If the speaker was a Cretian? The statement has no truth content. The statement cannot be true and it cannot be false. If it's true, then it's also false and if it's false, it's also true. Paul makes an error in Logic. That is to say if you did the same on a logic test, you would be marked wrong as it is an error. What's evident is that at least on this one point, Paul had no divine guidance because God does not make mistakes. God knows better. Titus 1:12 is just one verse where you cannot attribute the error to miscopyings. The error is clear as day and shows the fact that this part of the Bible could not have been divinely inspired. Ray