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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (18895)	7/7/1998 6:51:00 PM
From: Chuzzlewit	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Bob, if you think the universe was created in terms of the big bang, which, as I understand it (and my understanding of this is quite limited) the process of star creation is a continuous one, and the universe is expanding, then why is it necessary for you to insist that the Bible is literally true? To do that requires repeated suspensions of the laws of physics. Nobody was around to record the creation of the universe, so the truth of the matter must rely on evidence. The story that is told in the Bible requires the suspension of belief in the empirical laws so far discovered (like the speed of light and gravity). It would seem to me that a more rational approach for a believer is to assume that the universe and all things within it are the result of a creator's action and science is simply attempting to discover the details of how the creator did it. One could also assume that the Bible represents the thinking of peoples at various stages of their intellectual and religious evolution, and not the absolute truth. My training is in biochemistry and genetics, and so I feel uncomfortable discussing cosmology and the big bang. So let me return to a biological argument absolutely demonstrating the impossibility of a Biblical account. This is again from Genesis -- the flood story. Clearly, the water in the flood was either salt or fresh. In the former case it would have extincted virtually all of the fresh water fishes, and in the latter case all of the salt water fishes would have been wiped out. Why? Because fishes as we know them rely on fairly sophisticated renal and gill functions to maintain their osmotic balances, and with few exceptions fish osmoregulation does not function when the concentration of salt is far away from normal levels. If you don't believe me, try putting an ordinary goldfish or a minnow from a nearby stream into salt water. You will measure its lifespan in minutes. The problem is repeated when we consider large ocean dwelling mammals -- like whales and other cetaceans. Since the planktonic beds must have been destroyed as a result of the flood there was nothing for them to eat. Now too, there is a minor problem in sequence. According to the Bible Noah took a male and a female of each species on the ark except those animals that were ritually clean. Unfortunately, Noah had no idea of what was ritually clean since it wasn't revealed until much later. Ritually clean animals are described in the kosher laws. But wait, there's more! Two of every species is insufficient to support the species in nature. This had been repeatedly demonstrated and is related to the genetic load. Repeated inbreeding lead to the fixation of any number of deleterious genes through genetic drift. In addition, there is insufficient genetic variance to allow the species to adapt to a changing environment. There's even more with a brief foray into physics. Since we believe in the conservation of mass, where did all of the water from the flood come from? And where did it go to. Remember, according to Biblical accounts the water covered the entire face of the earth which would include mountain ranges. So, we're talking about enough water to submerge Mt. Everest. Almost 30,000 feet give or take. Bob, the point that I'm making is that the Bible is replete with absolute impossibilities-- unless you are willing to suspend the appropriate laws of nature to accommodate each one of these events. CTC

To: IN_GOD_I_TRUST who wrote (18895)	7/7/1998 8:01:00 PM
From: Don Martini	Respond to of 39621

6,000 years, Creative days and Hebrews 3&4 Hello Bob, Steve Meyer and Chuzzlewit! A great stumbling block technical people and others have with accepting the Bible as inspired is insistence by some that the creative days were 24 hour cycles. Geology testifies to millions of life forms entirely unlike any on the ark, the remains of which are found earthwide. Noah was commanded at Genesis 6:19 to take pairs of "every living creature" into the ark. This would include dinosaurs, mastodons and giant cave bears IF they were contemporaneous with Adam and had been brought forth a few hours or minutes before man on 24-hour Day 6. 6:22 says Noah did ALL that God commanded, so he collected specimens of every animal kind. Where are Stegosaurus and Triceratops today? Pick one: 1. The Devil put the fossils there to confuse us! 2. Noah didn't collect ALL the animal kinds. [Bible error] 3. An epidemic in the 1656 years between Adam's creation and the flood killed these species, so they were unavailable to Noah. 4. They were created, lived and died before humans, which means Day 6 was longer than 24 hours. Hebrews 3&4 show Day 7 was thousands of years long, continuing until Paul's time. It is specifically identified as "my rest" "from the founding of the world" Other points: Israel tried Jehovah 40 years and did not "enter into my rest." This "certain day" continued in David's 2 time, "remaineth", that is: extended into the future, more than 41 centuries after Adam was created. In Genesis 1&2 the Hebrew word "yom" is translated Day. This word is applied to the 12 daylight hours, 24 hours and variously with an appointed time, a season, a period of time. All 6 creative days are summed up as ONE all-embracing "day" at Genesis 2:4: "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven" ASV Psalm 90:4 says "a 1,000 years in thy sight are but as yesterday." 2 Peter 3:8 says "a day with the Lord is a 1,000 years." Paul said "Now is the day of salvation" it still continues! 2 Cor 6:2 The purpose of Jehovah's rest was not for recuperation, as He does not tire. [Isaiah 40:28] It was to permit humans to complete their assignment to be fruitful and fill the earth. The 7th day will complete when this command is fulfilled and under Jesus' Kingdom Eden is restored planetwide. Then Jehovah can say, as he said at the end of Days 5 & 6: It is good." The redeemed human race will have been restored to sonship with God as if Adam had never sinned. All works of Satan will be eradicated. "His Name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in Him. All nations shall call him happy ... and let the whole earth be filled with his Glory." Psalm 72 It's not as if Jehovah has to hurry, for "from everlasting to everlasting Thou art God." Ps 90:2 He is the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7. To have proceded with His majestic acts of creation over a sweep of thousands/millions of years only dramatizes each developing event; to Jehovah's greater glory. This is similar to the grand but gradual outworking of our salvation through Christ, which as yet to be fully completed. 1 Cor 15:25-28 Chuzzelwit, some religious seem to feel their faith is proved by holding to unreasonable views that violate the evidence at hand, as well as complete scriptural testimony. Jehovah is known by 2 books: Creation [the work of his hands] and the Holy Bible. "The heavens are declaring the glory of God; and of the work of his hands the expanse is telling." [Psalm 19:1 NWT] Earth shall see resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous [Acts 24:15] who shall have opportunity to accept Christ's ransom and enjoy eternal life as men and women in paradise. Eubola and Aids will be no more, nor old age nor death. "Behold, I create New heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. They shall build houses and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together and the lion shall eat straw like the ox." Isaiah 65 "The meek shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever" Ps 37:29 "The righteous shall never be removed, but the wicked shall not dwell in the land." Prov 10:30 "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth: Matt 5:5