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Strategies & Market Trends : From the Trading Desk -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: steve goldman who wrote (3382)7/16/1998 1:23:00 PM
From: OpenMind  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 4969
 
Steve, what impact can the new rule have on day traders, SOES or otherwise?

SEC Approves Rule Cutting Nasdaq's Minimum Quote Size by 90%
7/16/98 12:57

SEC Approves Rule Cutting Nasdaq's Minimum Quote Size by 90%

Washington, July 16 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Securities and
Exchange Commission approved a rule that would reduce by 90
percent the minimum number of shares that dealers on the Nasdaq
Stock Market must quote for any trade.
The rule, which could go into effect as early as next week,
gives dealers more flexibility in an attempt to encourage them to
post quotes for more stocks -- increasing competition and ease of
trading on Nasdaq. Dealers, also known as market-makers, use
their own capital to buy and sell stocks for investors when no
immediate matching order is available.
The rule would reduce to 100 shares, from 1,000 shares, the
minimum quote size, or the number of shares a dealer must be
willing to buy or sell at the quoted prices. The plan, known as
the ''actual size rule,'' was proposed by the National
Association of Securities Dealers, which runs Nasdaq.
''The actual size rule should give market-makers more
flexibility to manage their risk,'' the commission said in its 45-
page order. It ''likely will produce more accurate and
informative quotations, increase competition, and encourage
market-makers to maintain competitive prices.''
The rule would affect the proprietary quotes posted by
dealers trading from their own personal accounts, which make up
more than half of all Nasdaq transactions. Proprietary quotes
affect all investors and dealers because they often set the best
available price in the market.
The proposal emerged from a year-long pilot project
involving first 50 and then 150 of the largest Nasdaq stocks. The
pilot found that most dealers continued to make quotes of 1,000
shares or more, without harm to liquidity or trading spreads. The
new rule would affect all 6,000 stocks that trade on the nation's
second largest stock market, though it wouldn't affect their
prices.
''This makes sense because it allows people to show what the
real interest in an order is, rather than an artificial volume,''
said SEC Commissioner Isaac Hunt. ''It's good for Nasdaq.''
The plan has been vigorously opposed by small order-entry
firms, or ''day traders,'' who try to make quick profits by
placing rapid-fire trades when prices fluctuate. The firms, also
known as ''SOES activists'' because of their heavy use of
Nasdaq's Small Order Execution System, have said it isn't
economical for them to place 100-share orders because of the
transaction costs involved.
Order-entry firms that had opposed the proposal were muted
today in their criticism, noting that many of them already
adapted by cutting their use of the SOES system since the pilot
project began.
''I'm very disappointed, but most firms already stopped
trading on SOES,'' said Jim Lee, co-owner of Momentum Securities
in Houston and president of the Electronic Traders Association, a
group of 45 day-trading firms.
Many of these firms now are trading Nasdaq stocks on
Nasdaq's SelectNet system or on private electronic trading
systems such as Reuters Group Plc's Instinet or Bloomberg LP's
Bloomberg Tradebook, Lee said. Bloomberg LP is the parent company
of Bloomberg News.
Chris Block, the chief executive of Block Trading in
Houston, another day-trading firm, voiced support for the rule
proposal. ''You shouldn't have to bid more than the actual size
if you don't want to buy that much,'' he said.
Large brokerages have voiced support for the proposal,
saying they had been tied up by current requirements to execute
the numerous 1,000-share orders placed by SOES traders. The SOES
electronic system automatically executes some small stock orders
at a market-maker's quoted prices.
The SOES system, already shrinking, appears short-lived. It
would be consolidated with Nasdaq's largest trading system,
SelectNet, under an NASD proposal now under consideration by the
SEC. The plan has drawn widespread support from brokerages and
investors.

--Neil Roland in Washington (202) 624-1868/bd

Story illustration: For graph of Nasdaq Composite Index: CCMP
<Index> GIP

Company news:
RTR LN <Equity> Reuters
5350Z US <Equity> Bloomberg
CN, BQ, DES, COMP, RV, TRA

News by category:
NI NASD NASD
NI NASDAQ NASDAQ
NI SEC SEC
NI SCR Securities
NI RULES Rules
NI EXC All exchanges

People:
WHO ISAAC HUNT
WHO JIM LEE
WHO CHRIS BLOCK

Regional news:
NI US U.S.
NI UK U.K.

For news of SEC and Nasdaq: TNI SEC NASDAQ
-0- (BN ) Jul/16/ 98 12:57



To: steve goldman who wrote (3382)7/16/1998 9:34:00 PM
From: Tim Lumley  Respond to of 4969
 
Steve,

Thanks for the informative response about setting stops

I had always though stops worked in a way consistent with what you describe in your post. That is, once a stop order is placed with a broker, it quickly makes its way to an "order book" awaiting a potential execution.

Check out this post:
Message 5184047

Like I said before, that applies only to unfilled limit orders.
However, that's not to be confused with stop orders. A Stop Order
is a service that's provided by your broker and that's why day
trading firms like MB Trading don't provide them while other
firms like Datek do. Stop orders can be limit or market, and they
aren't entered into the market until the stop price you specify is
reached. Let's look at the same example but instead let's say you
want to place a buy stop limit order to buy the stock when it hits 10 1/2. Even though you might send the order to your broker well before the stock ever hits 10 1/2, it's never entered into the market by your broker's computer system until the ask price reaches your top price, which in this case was 10 1/2. So on stop orders, there is no way for the MMs to see them ahead of time because they aren't entered into the market until the stock reaches the stop price where they can be filled immediately.


This seems to say that the broker holds a stop order until the market moves to the specified level, and then submits the order. If this is the case, the MM couldn't see the order and could not pick it off, although i suppose he might guess where stops are clustered. In your experience is this true? I am still confused.

Thanks
Tim



To: steve goldman who wrote (3382)7/18/1998 12:34:00 AM
From: Jim Grajek  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 4969
 
In one of your replys you state
It might not be legal, but lets say the mm sees the 1/8th bids stepping away, he knows the 2k stop at 10 on his books, so he sells out the stock at 10 1/8. HE SMACKS THE BID...not your stock, but his own, perhaps short out of inventory. The waits for 2k left at 1/8, then takes out the whole bid. Now he's short at 1/8th. 10 bid is next best, the 10 bid activates your stop, he takes in your stock at 10 or applies the procedure in paragraph above and takes in at 1/4.It might not be legal, but lets say the mm sees the 1/8th bids stepping away, he knows the 2k stop at 10 on his books, so he sells out the stock at 10 1/8. HE SMACKS THE BID...not your stock, but his own, perhaps short out of inventory. The waits for 2k left at 1/8, then takes out the whole bid. Now he's short at 1/8th. 10 bid is next best, the 10 bid activates your stop, he takes in your stock at 10 or applies the procedure in paragraph above and takes in at 1/4.

I trade SOES and notice all the offers or bids at one particular price will leave in rapid fire succession, (especially after a new high or new low is hit). Is it the a MM taking out the other MMs? I know it can be daytraders taking out the offer if the MMs were leaving the offer but it can't be daytraders taking out a bid to get short if it was on a downtick. This occurs when nothing is happening in a stock and their are say 10 MMs on the bid or ask and they will all leave within seconds. Can you please explain this as no one has been able to explain this to me. I hope you understand my question.