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To: Scott McPealy who wrote (588)	7/22/1998 1:59:00 PM
From: Charles Hughes	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 5102

>>> NT differentiates itself from UNIX, therefore, the people who buy it don't want UNIX. <<< There are a lot of people like myself who can set up and program both NT and Unix. They might choose one or the other, based on need. >>>As long as Sun controls Java it will fail. Lets face it, they have not proven themselves to be able to deliver software any better than Microsoft. Java has been constantly changing, continously buggy (not even beta quality), and progress has been slow. <<< Actually they have been worse at delivery than MSFT. They are a hardware company, no matter what they think. And they have no clue how to use public feedback. However, I used to think they should let Java go, but now I think that if they did, MSFT would have finished destroying it already. And MSFT is a big part of the reason for the slow progress, as they continue to sow FUD and technical confusion. >>>Java is a money making racket for university computers science graduates. Its classic UNIX fundamentalism at its worst. Java is only mildly less complex than C++.<<< I agree it is too complex. I would say actually more complex to do practical things with than C++ at this point, because of the huge and self-contradictory API and lack of stable installed base. It did not start out as a racket, but it is certainly in the doldrums now. However, progress is stilll being made, and the current lack of hype can only help in the long run. I think a platform-independent programming system is needed for the Internet and Intranets. However, it may have to be Java++ or something based on the same ideas, with less claptrap, created and maintained on the Linudx model, that actually succeeds. I could use working agents, self configuring apps, automatically upgrading programs, good security in my own applications. If I had all that I am convinced I could create some hits with it. But the Java designers have been pretty arrogant, especially in regards to OO features, and don't listen. That has been their downfall. Having MSFT attack them exacerbates this of course, which of course will have been noticed in Redmond. >>>Ask yourself, what kind of crowd would love vi? Elitists, of course. But if you make this part of your analysis of whether Java will ultimately succeed, you are shooting from the hip for sure. I program C++ all day long, and have used maybe 20 'traditional' languages, but I still can see the great value in the Java ideal. However, this should have been a project like Linux. Unfortunately, there is nobody at Sun who can stand up to the example set by Linus. >>>Linux isn't innovation either. Its a copycat of the Netscape browser strategy (applied to operating systems)... You have this completely backwards. Linux (building on open Unix) was open software way before Netscape, and in fact was designed as an open free product with public coding and debugging from the very beginning. It was Linux (and Linus) which pioneered this concept successfully, only part of which Netscape is embracing. The use of this OS is growing faster than any commercial competitor. It is far more solid than most of it's competitors, especially surprising considering its age. The main problem with using the MSFT OS is having to deal with MSFT jacking you around. The second problem is the thousands and thousands of bugs. The third is that is is far more costly. There is a clear opportunity for Linux, and smart consultants and IS folks and vertical systems integrators will take a look at it. As Informix and Oracle and Netscape have done. Those companies are not spending their port dollars for nothing. Cheers, Chaz

To: Scott McPealy who wrote (588)	7/22/1998 11:10:00 PM
From: Kashish King	Respond to of 5102

To Bill Grates, er, Scott McPealy. Linux threatens Sun's Solaris and every other proprietary UNIX operating system. False, Linux isn't a threat Solaris on the high end. Besides, Sun makes money from hardware, software and services whether or not Linux is running the box or not. As long as Sun controls Java it will fail. It's not failing, on the contrary: it's growing at an unprecedented rate and that's why Sony, Motorola, Ericsson, IBM and the rest of the industrialized world is adopting Java technologies in large segments of their respective market spaces. Java is an international standard being guided by Sun and following on the heels of C++. It's Microsoft that is trying to make Java fail by not supporting JNI and other critical components of the technology. The last time I checked, the Windows API's and Visual Basic were controlled by Microsoft with no input from anybody whatsoever. Java is a money making racket for university computers science graduates... Sorry, once you reach the level of stupidity you've managed to achieve with that statement the conversation ends, as does my reading of the rest of your crap.