SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: John S. who wrote (19704)7/27/1998 2:23:00 PM
From: Jamey  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 39621
 
John, Emile is not stupid. He is aware that any person professing a belief in the risen Son of God could never condone the belief of Judiasm. Emile knows each and every individual on this thread that has posted on a regular basis as to their belief or non-belief.
He is prone to attack anyone that shows a belief that the Jewish nation, Israel has a place in future prophesy.As a devoted Amillinialist(which he does not profess) he believes that the tribulation took place during the Babylonian exile and we the Church of God are the true Israelites that when we become saintly enough, will usher in the return of Christ. It all comes from a belief in Plato's scool of thought in the 2nd century A.D. that spiritualized many literal prophesies.
The basic error in this amillenial approach is failure to comprehend that just as the Church is saved by the grace of God, so Israel will be regathered by the grace of God and it does not depend on human faithfulness. Israel does not deserve to be restored and given the land, but God's initial promise to Abraham was by grace and unconditional. Though the people of Israel were dispersed from the land, they were also promised they would be re-gathered from all over the world. God said it and I believe it!
Thank you John, for your knowledgeable comments. We all(most of us) appreciate your presence.
Santiago




To: John S. who wrote (19704)7/27/1998 5:08:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Who is a Jew under the New Covenant?

Romans 2

28: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.

29: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the
spirit, and
not in the letter
; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
-------------------------
1Pet.2:9,10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that
ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his
marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not
obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Galatians 3

16: Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
--------------------------
Galatians 3
29: And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(John, it seems that you want to take the bread--the promises--of the children and give them
to those who are not the sons of God.)
---------------------------
Chapter: Phil.3

2: Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3: For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

---------------------------

Rev. 2;9
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the
blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
(Do you know of any other relgion but Judaism that uses Synagogue in the last 2000 years.)
---------------------
Rev. 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are
not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to
know that I have loved thee.
-----------------

Col.3
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him
that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian,
Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness,
humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

---------------------------------------------------

Clearly, the Jewish Apostles are telling us in many of the books of the
New Testament that the Christians are the Israel of God under the
New Covenant.
This takes nothing away from Jewish Christians, but it stripes the
pride and arrogance of the flesh and false religious beliefs of
those who call themselves Jews but are in reality the Synagogue of
Satan.

The above quotes are the Word of God and they are all true. The myths
and fables about modern Judaism and modern Israel being the True Jews is
of the flesh and the evil imagination of men.

May Christ increase in your heart

Emile



To: John S. who wrote (19704)7/27/1998 8:15:00 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 39621
 
Came across this in my studies. Thought it was pretty good.....

ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED?
(ROMANS 11:26)
Does this mean every single Jew, or Israel as a national entity? Didn't Judaism on the whole reject Christ and thus refuse God's saving act? How then can "all Israel" be saved? And didn't Jesus, before Paul, say that the kingdom of God would be taken away from the Jewish people and given to a new people (Mt 21:43)?
Romans 11:26 has been at the heart of much Christian reflection about eschatology or doctrines about end times. I remember well the interpretation given this text by one of my college teachers. According to his eschatological timeline, the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, which ended an almost two-thousand-year period without nationhood, inaugurated the final days of "the time of the Gentiles," namely that period when the land of Israel was occupied by Gentiles. (Compare Lk 21:24, where Jesus predicts the destruction of Jerusalem and a subsequent period of its being "trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.")
But our teacher said there was one piece of the eschatological puzzle still missing: the Old City of Jerusalem was still being held by the Arabs. A barbed-wire fence separated Jews from their ancient city, including the temple mount. When that fence comes down and Israel regains control over the Old City, so our teacher confidently predicted, Jerusalem will no longer be "trodden down by the Gentiles." Thus "the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled," and the conversion of Israel to its Messiah will be inaugurated. Many of us who took this and other very specific eschatological views seriously waited expectantly when, during the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, the fence did come down and Israel regained control over its ancient city. Over twenty years have passed, but Israel has remained a thoroughly secular state.
This rather recent historical experience illustrates the precarious nature of all eschatological theories which tie particular biblical texts to very specific historical events. It also reveals the difficulty of understanding the precise meaning of Paul's words "all Israel will be saved." In order to gain a clearer perspective on this matter, we will examine Paul's extended discussion with regard to Israel in Romans 9-11 with particular focus on the immediate context of Romans 11:11-27.
After showing that God's redemptive action in and through Christ (Rom 1-4) has brought freedom from condemnation (Rom 5), sin (Rom 6), law (Rom 7) and death (Rom 8), Paul brings this part of his letter to a climax with a magnificent description of God's love in Christ from which nothing can separate us. This glorious doxology is abruptly overshadowed in Romans 9:1-2 by an expression of Paul's deep pain over the fact that Israel, the people of God, had rejected their Messiah.
The question of Israel's fate, in light of its rejection of the early Christian proclamation that Jesus of Nazareth was the fulfillment of Israel's prophetic hope, was very much in the consciousness of Jewish followers of the risen Christ. A sense of perplexity and incredulity regarding Jewish unbelief is reflected throughout the New Testament, beginning with the Gospels. But for Paul, it must have been particularly intense. Had not he, a leader of the opposition to this messianic faith, been grasped from the darkness of unbelief to the light and freedom of faith in Christ? But beyond this personal dimension, were not his people those who had been the objects of God's gracious activity through the calling of father Abraham, the creation of a nation, the deliverance of the exodus, the giving of law and covenant? Had not they been the objects of God's steadfast love and faithfulness from which "nothing can separate," as he had just confessed in Romans 8:35? If the word of God does not fail (Rom 9:6), why is Israel stuck in the failure of disobedience? That is the agonizing question which Paul addresses in Romans 9-11.
After the opening lament over Israel (Rom 9:1-5), Paul proceeds to show in a variety of ways that God's redemptive purposes, inaugurated with the call of Abraham and brought to a climax in Christ, have in fact not failed, even with regard to the people of Israel.
He begins by demonstrating that from the very beginning belonging to the people of God was not a matter of birthright (Rom 9:7-8) or of human achievement (Rom 9:11, 16). Rather, membership in God's family is determined solely by the promise (Rom 9:8), calling (Rom 9:11) and mercy (Rom 9:16) of God. In this context, Paul introduces a different use of the term Israel, which he has already indicated earlier in this epistle (see Rom 2:28-29; see also Gal 3:7; 6:16); namely, there is an Israel "of the flesh" and an Israel "of the promise." Both are determined by the gracious action of God, but the latter transcends the boundaries of the former. That "the children of God" (Rom 9:8 RSV) have their existence purely on the basis of God's calling and mercy is underlined by the analogy of the potter and the clay in Romans 9:19-23. The potter is sovereign over the clay. And, in that sovereignty, he has called into peoplehood a remnant both from the people of Israel and from the Gentiles. The citation of prophetic words from Hosea and Isaiah (Rom 9:25-26) underlines this fact.
In the following section (Rom 9:30-10:4), Paul goes on to state why the redemptive purposes of God are being received and realized among the Gentiles and why Israel as a whole is rejecting them. Israel rejected the righteousness of God-his relation-restoring action that culminated in the servant-ministry of Jesus-because it sought to establish its own righteousness by external conformity to the law. This attempt to secure one's own worth and standing with God-which, according to Paul's earlier discussion (Rom 2:17-29), invariably results in boasting and self-righteousness-leads to refusal to submit to God's way (Rom 10:3). And God's way is that as creatures we respond to the love and faithfulness of the Creator with faith, that we believe his Word, that we respond in trust (Rom 10:5-13).
The opportunity to respond to God in this way has been there throughout Israel's history, as Paul demonstrates by reference to Old Testament texts (Rom 10:14-21). And throughout that history, including the coming of God's righteousness in the Messiah, Israel has been "a disobedient and obstinate people" (Rom 10:21).
Does this history of rejection and disobedience mean that God has finally given up on his people Israel? That is the question which occupies Paul in the next section of the epistle (Rom 11:1-10). The answer to the question is no. For just as God called out a remnant from a disobedient nation in the past (Rom 9:2-4), so too there is a remnant in the present that has responded in faith to God's grace (Rom 11:5). Paul himself is evidence of the existence of such a remnant within Judaism (Rom 11:1).
But the fact remains that the vast majority of Israel has refused to submit to God's way of salvation and has rejected his Messiah. True enough. But God is not yet done with his people. Though Paul has been very adamant throughout the epistle that faith and belonging to Christ are the only criteria for what it means to be "of the seed of Abraham" (Rom 2:20; 9:6-8), Paul also decidedly rejects the idea that this truth means the exclusion of the nation of Israel from God's redemptive purposes (the analogy of the olive tree in Rom 11:17-24 underlines that). For him, such a conclusion would have been inconsistent with the historical election of Israel (see Rom 11:29).
Thus Paul acknowledges Israel's failure and rejection (Rom 11:7), but he proceeds to argue that within God's overarching purposes this reality is temporally limited. Indeed, God uses the present rejection for his purposes. This activity of God is underscored by the Scripture citations from Isaiah 29 and Psalm 69 about the hardening of Israel (Rom 11:8-10), for since Israel's disobedience is placed in the service of God's purpose, God can be spoken of as "hardening" Israel. But the goal of disobedience and hardening is not their ultimate rejection and destruction; it is, rather, twofold: (1) the salvation of the Gentiles (the world) and (2) the ultimate salvation of Israel (Rom 11:11-15).
Paul is convinced that through the proclamation of the gospel to the Gentiles and its acceptance by them, the promise to Abraham-that all the people of the earth shall be blessed in him-is being fulfilled (see Rom 4). He is also convinced, on the basis of Deuteronomy 32:21, which he cites in Romans 10:19, that the salvation of the Gentiles will provoke Israel to jealousy and open them to the gospel (Rom 11:11, 14).
Within the context of this argument, Paul anticipates the "mystery" regarding the nation of Israel's ultimate destiny, which he will articulate in Romans 11:25-26. If the failure of Israel is leading to the salvation of the Gentiles, the manifestation of God's grace and blessing will be much greater with "their full inclusion" (Rom 9:12 RSV). What does he mean by this expression?
The term translated "full inclusion" is the Greek word pleroma. The ASV renders this term by "fulfillment" or "fullness." In Romans 11:25 the same expression is used again, but this time in connection with the Gentiles. Here the RSV renders it as "full number of the Gentiles," while the ASV renders "fullness of the Gentiles." I am persuaded that the idea of a divinely predetermined number, which has to be made up of both Gentiles and Jews, is not within Paul's purview here. When noncanonical Jewish apocalyptic literature speaks of a "full number" of Israelites in relation to end events, the word used is not pleroma but arithmos. In Revelation 7:4 we read of "the number of the sealed" (RSV). The word used is again not pleroma but arithmos, and the number is generally regarded as symbolic rather than indicative of numerical extent. Thus we do better to seek the meaning for Paul's use of pleroma in his use of the term elsewhere in his writings.
With but one exception (Rom 13:10), the most natural rendering of Paul's use of pleroma is "fullness" or "completeness" (Rom 15:29; Gal 4:4; Eph 1:23; 3:19; 4:13; Col 1:19; 2:9). What then do the expressions "[Israel's] fullness" (Rom 11:12) and "the fullness of the Gentiles" (Rom 11:25 KJV) mean? Light may be shed on this problem by Paul's use of verbal cognates of pleroma in three texts where his mission to the Gentiles is in focus. In Romans 15:18-22 he speaks of having "fully proclaimed" the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles and now being desirous of expanding this mission to Spain. In Colossians 1:25-27 he speaks of having made the "word of God fully known" (RSV) among the Gentiles. And in 2 Timothy 4:17 he confesses God's empowerment "so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it."
In light of these usages, Johannes Munck argues convincingly, in his book Christ and Israel, that Paul's commitment to the full dissemination of the gospel to the Gentiles must provide the interpretive key to his use of pleroma in Romans 11. The expression "the fullness [or completion] of the Gentiles" in 11:25 (KJV) then denotes the final result of Paul's proclamation of the gospel to the Gentiles. God's purpose through that preaching is their salvation, their completion (as children of God in Christ; see Col 2:10).
The completion of the mission to the Gentiles will result in, or lead to, Israel's "fullness" or "completion" (Rom 11:12), her "acceptance" (Rom 11:15). These phrases anticipate the affirmation that "all Israel will be saved." The way from the anticipation of this conviction to this climactic expression is paved by the analogy of the olive tree (Rom 11:17-24) and its astounding claim that God will indeed graft the broken-off branches of unbelieving Israel back into the olive tree to join the branches of "remnant Jews" and believing Gentiles who have already been grafted to the olive tree.
Paul proclaims this future realization of God's intention as "a mystery" (Rom 11:25). He is not referring here to a special revelation he had received, some esoteric secret communicated to him directly in a vision or dream. Rather, he is referring to God's redemptive action and purpose, revealed in the life, death and resurrection of Christ which he proclaims (Rom 16:25; 1 Cor 2:1-2; Col 2:2, where "God's mystery" is simply identified as "Christ"). Sometimes, as in this text, the term is used more specifically for God's plan of salvation. The most instructive parallel to this text-which envisions the grafting of both Gentile and Jew into the same olive tree-is Ephesians 3:3-6, where Paul says that the content of the "mystery of Christ" is the inclusion of the Gentiles as fellow heirs of the promise with Jews in the new community of Christ's body.
Within this overarching content of the mystery Paul proclaims is a more specific component, namely, that the "hardening [which] has come upon part of Israel" (Rom 11:25) is limited not only in extent, but also with regard to time: its rejection will last only "until the fullness of the Gentiles" comes (KJV). This completion of God's purpose among the Gentiles leads then to the completion of that same redemptive purpose for Israel, in that "all Israel will be saved" (11:26). Commentators are agreed that "all Israel" means Israel "as a whole," as a historical people who have a unique and particular identity, not necessarily including every individual Israelite. Support for this way of understanding the phrase "all Israel" comes from a rabbinic tract (Sanhedrin X, 1), where the statement "all Israelites have a share in the world to come" is immediately qualified by a list of exceptions, such as the Sadducees, heretics, magicians and so on. The salvation of Israel is comprehensive, but not all-inclusive. In this text, just as "the fullness of the Gentiles" does not mean that each individual Gentile will believe in his heart and confess with his lips (Rom 10:10), so the "fullness of Israel" cannot mean every individual Jew.
While in Romans 11:25-26 the present "part of Israel" which is hardened is contrasted with "all Israel" which will be saved in the future, it is clear that "all Israel" denotes both the already-saved remnant and the yet-to-be-saved "others" or "rest" (Rom 11:7). What is also clear from the whole thrust of the discussion in Romans 9-11 is that God's purposes for the salvation of Israel will be realized in no other way and by no other means than through the preaching of the gospel and the response of faith. It is that preaching and that response which will lead to "life from the dead" (Rom 11:15), clearly a reference to the eschatological event of the resurrection which will be preceded by the "completion of Israel" (Rom 11:26) as the last stage in the process initiated by the death and resurrection of Jesus.
There is no indication anywhere in these chapters of Romans that Paul has in view the conversion of Israel as a nation-state, located on a particular piece of real estate. Already in Paul's time, there were more Jews living outside Palestine than within. What Paul does envision is a time when the gospel will be heard and accepted by his people as a whole, scattered throughout the world but, nonetheless, a unique, identifiable people whose identity is rooted in the great historical events of redemptive history and whose future is guaranteed by the God who has saved his people and will again save them by "banish[ing] ungodliness" and "tak[ing] away their sins" (Rom 11:26-27 RSV).

Another man's opinion from, Hard Sayings Of The Bible!

What do you think????

Steve