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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dayuhan who wrote (24179)	8/10/1998 8:00:00 PM
From: Jacques Chitte	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Steve: I've spent the weekend (well okay - during commercials) pondering your concept of the Force. My conclusions hinge on a question which I submit to you. Is the "Force" as you describe it a) the manifestation of a spiritual extrahuman presence or b) a human trait/attitude? If it's a), then religion has a lot going for it. The mythology and faith at the core of any religion is a prescription for how to be in tune with that presence. It's further stipulated that the Presence is important and beneficial. If it's b), then we find ourselves examining a showcase of one of the peculiarities of human psychology. It's what Norman Vincent Peale called "the power of positive thinking". There is a universal but unscientific lore that thinking good thoughts can affect your physical well-being. I figure that this extends into the "other people" parts of our lives as well - relationships, politics etc. This ties into the ongoing musings about Jesus. The New Testament makes no bones about one central premise: "OK folks, here's the real deal. Straight from God. This is the one good way to live and think. All other ways will cause you to accrue a major liability, payable upon death". Very neat - this threat of post-mortem accounting. If we buy into it just a little - well you see how scary it can be. The miracles become exceedingly important in this context. They are a mark of authenticity for the one choice placed before us that affects more than just our bodies and brains - if the folks in the black robes aren't full of ****. I find it frustrating that the miracles seem to be features of a narrow slice of history - and thus beyond straightforward critical examination. The whole thing is a cosmic pig in a poke. How do you believe [what's in the poke]? Talk about consequences. OK, I'm rambling like an LA suburb...

To: Dayuhan who wrote (24179)	8/14/1998 10:27:00 PM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

<<If a story, a saying, or any combination of words holds real wisdom, helps people live better lives, and reveals some higher truth, does it matter if it came from Jesus, Buddha, the kid down the block, or 10,000 monkeys pounding on 10,000 typewriters?>> Interesting question! No, of course it does not matter where real wisdom comes from. Anyone who is really open to higher truth is essentially open in an ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm kind of way, receptive to the message, regardless of the messenger. The problem with Jesus and Christianity is that much is attributed to Jesus which did not come from his mouth. Little-known stuff, like the fact that Paul met him only once, and that Jesus never said one word about homosexuality, seems to fall by the wayside. And some Christians seem uncomfortable with even the fact that Jesus was a Jew, or that he had dark skin, and very probably didn't have blue eyes, either. I question whether this person--who obviously had charisma and was so vibrant that people remembered him after his death--would approve of much that has happened since his death in regard to all of the violence and bigotry that are associated with some aspects and historical periods of Christian history. The Jesus Seminar is attempting to separate the essential teachings of Jesus from the myths, legends and distortions that have grown up around him. I think that is a very interesting thing to try and do. I have trouble understanding why people who are Christians would feel threatened by that. I mean, what is it that they are really worshipping? What are REAL Christian values? Can you be a Christian and be about exclusivity and violence and hatred? Is Jesus held in high esteem by people who do not know who he was? How can you worship someone or something that you do not understand? To me, those are the important questions.