Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Zeev Hed who wrote (20442)	8/29/1998 10:09:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine	Respond to of 39621

Hi Zeev, I like your thinking and take it as sincere skepticism rather than arrogant rejection. I also thank you for introducing the Talmud to this discussion---both the Babylonian and the Palestinians. DNA studies from the shroud of Turin is a challenging and creative thought. From my lat reading, I thought the shroud had been dismissed after the carbon dating was performed. Also, if I remember correctly, they found pollen that did not match. I am very familiar with both the Babylonian and Palestinian Talmud. I did approach the Talmuds after I became a Christian and was consequently prejudice agianst it when I read it.(The Soncino edition) I know that the Babylonian Talmud has become the corner stone of modern Judaism; replacing the Torah as the central lieterature that the Old Testament Judaism held in highest esteem. I found the stories about Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud poorly written and of no historical value is helping establishing a counter point to the historical eyewitness accounts by the Jewish Apostles and disciples that followed Jesus. I am open to look at any talmudic account that you want to present that show evidence that Jesus was not the promised Messiah of Israel. The real proof that the Jewish eyewitness accounts in the New Testament are authentic comes from the fact that we can test their words and find them to be true on a personal basis. If Jesus was truly the diving son of God, then he should have the same power and accessibility that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had in the Old Testament. According to the New TEstament, he is the same God with which Abraham spoke and covenanted. There is also the issue of the Prophetical writings in the Old Testament being fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Could you read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, for example, and tell me who is God speaking about in that chapter. Thanks for your sincere words. Emile

To: Zeev Hed who wrote (20442)	8/30/1998 6:52:00 AM
From: Emile Vidrine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

"If it is a question of faith rather than fact, that is quite fine with me, and you can hold your faith without any threat on my part." Zeev, It's a matter of both faith and fact. The eyewitness historical accounts contained in the New Testament were recorded by simple Jewish men who had nothing to gain and everything to lose by holding to their testimonies of what they saw and heard about Jesus. An honest evaluation of these historical documents will reveal the factual part of the Christian faith. I've read the modern rabbinical account of the life of Jesus in the Babyloniand talmud and found it less credible. Don't you think you owe it to yourself to investigate the Jewish testimonies found in the New Testament. Remember, Zeev, the Christian Faith was established by Jewish men and women who observed the facts and realities they wrote about. Have you ever read these Jewish accounts of the life of Jesus? If you read them with an open mind, you will find powerful eyewitness testimonies to the life of Jesus that would stand up in any civilized court of law. Emile

To: Zeev Hed who wrote (20442)	9/7/1998 1:06:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine	Respond to of 39621

"Dear Emile, your comment: "the Jewish leaders were desperate Inquisitors seeking sins against the son of God", I take it you were there and know for a fact that those leaders sought crucifixtion, not the Romans, and of course you know it as a fact that it was the "son of god" that crucified. I wonder if you can compare the DNA on the Turin veil to that of the all mighty and show proof of fatherhood." No, I wasn't there, and neither were you. So let us look at our respective sources of knowledge about the Crucifixion and life of Jesus. There are three major sources for the Crucifixion of Jesus: First we have historical eyewitness documents in the New Testament that were written by Jewish observers of the events; next we have Pontius Pilate's eyewitness report to Rome; and finally we have the hearsay fables and myths contained in the Babylonian Talmud and written centuries after the events. I chose to believe the eyewitness historical accounts contained in the New Testament, while you have choosen the myths and fables of the Babylonian Talmud written centuries after the events. The rules of scientific historiography strongly support the eyewitness accounts in contrast to the myths and fables written in the Talmud centuries after the event. The mythical oral traditions in the Talmud were tailored to fit the needs of a New Judaism that no longer reflected the beliefs of the Old Testament Judaism The next question that comes to mind is: why did you choose the path of myth and legend rather than the path of reason and rationality? It is obvious that your choice came from the cultural and social endoctrination you received from modern talmudic Judaism in your youth. Your desire for rational investigation was unable to overcome the inertia and shackles of talmudic Judaism. You chose the emotional and comfortable path of "social religous familiarity" rather than the honest and reasonable path of Truth. The path of truth leads to the reality that Jesus is indeed the Messiah of ancient Israel and Son of God. Your next question: "and of course you know it as a fact that it was the "son of god" that crucified. I wonder if you can compare the DNA on the Turin veil to that of the all mighty and show proof of fatherhood." Yes, I do know "as a fact" that is was Jesus the Son of God that was crucified. I know it as a fact for two fundamental reasons. The Jewish Apostles and disciples accurately recorded the deeds and words of Jesus in the New Testament historical documents about his life, death and Resurrection, and these accurate accounts of Jesus's life show that he fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah. Secondly, Jesus's actions and life today continue to reveal his as the Messiah and Son of God. The events in Jesus's life, his miracles, his words, his sinless life and his actions after the Resurrection and Ascension into heaven clearly show that he was both divine and the Messiah prophecied in the Old Testament scriptures. His divinity can be seen through his miracles and words as well as his life and actions after his Resurrection and Ascension. Other prophets of the Old Testament such as Elijah also did mighty miralces through the power of God but were never able to raise themsleves from the dead nor were they ever considered candidates as the promised Messiah. This showed that Jesus was both a prophet and the son of God. The words of Jesus and his sinless life were also clear indications that he was the divine son of God. Many Apostles and disciples were with Jesus every moment during the last last three years of his life. They all testified that he was sinless both in deeds and words. We know from experince that this is impossible for normal men. Further, all the words of Jesus were eternal and not constrained by temporal or social barriers. The eternal principles he spoke are just as valid today and in every culture as they were then in the Hebrew culture. The eternal elements in the words of Jesus can be tested by any honest man today. Isolate yourself from the noice and distraction of everyday life and try to write even one page of words of eternal truth that transcend cultural, ethnic and religous barriers and are applicable for all human conditions. Jesus spoke his eternal words while in the rush and confusion of everyday life. Read the words of Jesus and you will find that they are words of infinite and timeless wisdom that could only be written by our creator. Finally, the Messiahship of Jesus can clearly and conclusively be proven by examining the prophecies in the Old Testament and comparing them to the life of Jesus. Jesus fulfilled all of the Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament and conclusively proved that he was the Messiah promised to the ancient Hebrew people. The 53rd. chapter of Isaiah is a good example of this fulfillment. The most conclusive evidence of Jesus's Messiaship and divinity are his actions in our lives today. Faith and belief in Jesus brings the presents of God in our lives through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and restores our fellowship with God our Father. The presence and action of Jesus in our lives today confirm the eyewitness historical data presented in the New Testament documents. We can conclude that both Emile and Zeev were absent during the historical events of Jesus's life, Crucifixion and Resurrection. Beacuse of our absence from the original events we are forced to rely on historical and experiential data. Zeev has chosen the myths and fables contained in the Babylonian Talmud and Emile has choosen the eyewitness accounts of the Jewish disciples. Zeev has tested the talmudic and modern Jewish account and found it wanting and consequently has become an agnostic by his own words. Emile has tested the historical accounts of the New Testaments and found them true by experiential knowledge. Jesus is indeed the Messiah promised to Israel, and the Son of God who has taken away the sins of mankind. To prove that Jesus is truly the Son of God and the Messiah one needs only to open their heart to truth and reality and God will do the rest. Emile