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Pastimes : And The 7th Angel Sounded -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Stan who wrote (454)	9/1/1998 5:11:00 PM
From: Sidney Reilly	Respond to of 609

Stan' I'll say that your response is not what I expected. The Old Testament shows us that the angels were in conflict with the powers of satan and his angels. The explanation about why the angel was delayed in bringing Daniel an explanation of the visions he had had shows us the battle they are constantly in. Dan. 10:10-14. He said no less an angel than Michael came to assist him in breaking through a blockade by the devil's forces who were preventing him from coming to Daniel. The angels were involved in all sorts of conflicts in the OT and they still contend with the powers of darkness in our behalf today. To be sure we also have great authority in Jesus's name to wrestle against principalities and powers of darkness. Powers that the OT people did not have. That does put us in a better position. But as I posted before God has ordained a plan and we find that we are not able to overcome or restrain the beast by this verse in Revelation. It is also not believable IMO that us flawed christians could restrain the beast. We often cannot even retrain our own selfish impulses. Thank God for His mercy on us. Rev. 13:7 "And it was given to him to wage war with the saints and to overcome them: and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him". Wrestling against principalities and powers is what we are doing when we refrain from sin and try to walk godly in Christ. That is what Paul is referring to in those verses, our own personal struggle against sin in our own lives. We are the salt of the earth, referring to our role in spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's the salt, the gospel, we are the "salt shaker". If we become unsalty or empty we are useless. Also are you saying Elisha gave God the victory or did God give Elisha the victory. If God gave Elisha the victory then God's angels were the agents to deliver that victory. That is born out in many descriptions of battles in the OT. The whole premise of the church being that which restrains is to prove a pre-tribulation rapture theory. But if the theory is seriously damaged by Jesus's own words, why keep trying to prove it? As I posted recently the explanation by Jesus of the events of the last days clearly put's the rapture after the great tribulation. If this is true then why keep trying to prop up a discredited doctrine? The pre-trib rapture theory is disproven by Jesus Himself with easy to understand language. Not any hard to understand prophecies here which well meaning christians misconstrue to their own harm. This is very plainly stated. Matt. 24:21 ...for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. Matt. 24: 29-31 29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it's light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth His angels WITH A GREAT TRUMPET AND THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from THE FOUR WINDS, FROM ONE END OF THE SKY TO THE OTHER. In Rev. 13:1-10 would be the revealing of the lawless one when "he that now restrains is taken out of the way". Rev. 13:7 "And it was given to him to make war with the saints and overcome them," Now if the rapture has occurred already their would be no saints to make war with. But there are because we will not be gone yet. After verse 7 the saints are alluded to in verse 8 and mentioned again in verse 10 and again in Rev.14:12. Then in Rev. 14:14-16 the Lord reaps the earth of the Church. Rev. 14:14 "And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like the Son of Man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His right hand." The description by Jesus Himself of His return in Matthew and the description of the Lord in Rev.14:14 are identical. He is describing Himself gathering the Church and Rev. 14: 14-16 describes the same event. Jesus says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" in Matt and we see in Revelation that the church is gathered after the tribulation and before the pouring out of God's wrath. We will suffer tribulation but we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. I keep repeating this because it seems so obvious to me. Start with the simplest scripture to understand then work our way to the hard ones.