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Pastimes : Religion on SI -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Zeev Hed who wrote (743)	9/7/1998 10:55:00 PM
From: Alan Markoff	Respond to of 1542

You belive that? give me a break, the Pope would not grant him a divorce and he thus created another Church. I am not talking of Luther, Kalvin the Hugonoth and countless of other Christian Churches, just look at the house divided in Northern Ireland, by what, their different churches, One God? maybe, one faith? barely, but one Church? You are joking. Thats my whole argument in a nutshell. Emile thinks Chrisanity is him and no other. The KKK call themselves Christians ect..... Their are thousands of so called Christian churches with differing theologies. Some Christian Churches support Israel while others feel the same way Emile does (get rid of the Jews). Thats why I feel ANYONE can be right with God and its not dependant on Christianity its called searching for the truth on a personal level and if you are sincere God will NOT let you down. Alan

To: Zeev Hed who wrote (743)	9/8/1998 7:16:00 PM
From: Eddy Blinker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1542

Henry Huxley the inventor of the Agnostic Scene... Zeev; is he, your mentor in those nights you find no sleep over all those nagging questions that torment your mind ? Like you, he did not like the assertion that Agnostics are not to be equalized with Atheists, Theists, Materialists or any other " ists ". He too had not slightest objection to any one believing in anything. Why? Because he was a ATHEIST himself. And that is what I do not like about Agnostics, handmaidens and towel changers of all the "ists". They are a pretentious lot, delivering most of the time answers with embedded sneaky questions. Their wisdom is not linked to religion alone. They are universal. The dance on many marriages and are at home in many subjects. As long as there is a dispute of some sort and few shillings to be made you find them. Look no further as Barbie Doll Payne and you find a very potent agnostic and obnoxious trouble maker. Religion is just not her subject. Suggesting to her bible studies is like inviting the devil to take a bath in Holy Water. Politicians on the take and of course attorneys representing falsehood against a fee are every day shinning examples of todays agnostic living style. Zeev, instead of apologizing to me - If you are a ATHEIST simply say so. Great men and womens were and are ATHEISTS. No need to keep up the display of searching for the truth. I understand. On the other hand - and in now way demeaning my own faith in God- I must agree with some critical voices on this thread concerning organized religion and believe, displayed by numerous self appointed houses gathering to Swiss Yodellers, as I call those vain talkers and seducers who incite all those partisans of error. And all in Gods name. Those engaging in new marketing efforts to gain fresh " believing " souls upon an underlying materialistic agenda. No I am not talking about all those who collect cash to feed starving children around the world while cutting themselves the largest portion of the donated pie. I am talking about the AA and their religious 12 steps/12 traditions doctrine to achieve sobriety. The third tradition of AA concerns itself with the example- an Atheist called Ed who did not mind to get with the program and stop the wagon. Until the one inevitable day, he absolutely had to have- "just a sip" of the good stuff again. Of course in the morning hours, Ed sorry about his lapse, rebuilding his bed, tossing and turning his blanket in a cheap downtown hole. Ed, got hold on the dresser,- by pure accident -the most freely distributed book in the world, namely the Gideon Bible. No sip of of the good stuff since 1938. 60 years without a drink with the Help of GOD. But what about Ed the Atheist? AA keeps that part a secret. The 12 steps/12 traditions which converted Ed. l. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. 11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs" (Alcoholics Anonymous Anonymous World Services Inc.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." George Bernard Shaw <<<just look at the house divided in Northern Ireland>> Interesting subject I will respond another time. ED