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Strategies & Market Trends : Momentum Daytrading - Tricks of the Trade -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Ken Wolff who wrote (1522)	9/15/1998 7:05:00 PM
From: ozzi	Respond to of 2120

Thanks a million for the classroom dialog. Please keep them coming. Gary

To: Ken Wolff who wrote (1522)	9/16/1998 12:26:00 AM
From: Nazbuster	Respond to of 2120

Ken, GREAT dialog on trading attitude! I'll print and use for wallpaper! POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...POINTS not money...

To: Ken Wolff who wrote (1522)	9/19/1998 3:23:00 PM
From: surfinSteve	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 2120

News alerts, futures and stock quotes, and charts, all automatically update in shareware that I just finished writing. Please give it a try and let me know what you think. Check it out at: home.att.net Thanks, surfinSteve

To: Ken Wolff who wrote (1522)	9/22/1998 10:16:00 PM
From: Ken Wolff	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 2120

Hey Gang, Ross from MB trading filled in for me today in class while I got my hand operated on... you may find this interesting... Good Luck Ken www.mtrader.com MTrader Class - 09/22/98 (C) Copyright 1998 The Momentum Trader [9:37] <RHD> here is what we will do [9:37] <learner> Dell is cool [9:37] <Darmm> good idea..dell [9:37] <RHD> Lets start by me showing you what routes I would use [9:38] <RHD> I will do this for several times then we will [9:38] <RHD> stop and discuss why [9:38] <RHD> we chose a particular route [9:38] <RHD> so for this example we will use DELL [9:38] <RHD> I will say things like buy ARCA LMT [9:38] <RHD> or Bid ARCA [9:38] <RHD> etc... [9:39] <RHD> this is assuming we are buyers [9:39] <Graeme> WHATS THE TOPIC ROSS? [9:39] <RHD> the same concepts of course apply to either direction [9:39] <RHD> Topic is "Ideas in Order Routing" [9:39] <RHD> I will not be using a lot of SN in this example [9:39] <RHD> we will discuss towards the end, when and how [9:40] <RHD> so using DELL here we go [9:40] <RHD> buy ARCA [9:40] <RHD> all ECN's so no SOES here [9:40] <RHD> or Buy SN [9:40] <RHD> buy ISLD, max 2700 shares [9:40] <Graeme> Max - will You email us this class? [9:40] <RHD> bid ARCA or ISLD [9:41] <RHD> Buy ARCA or ISLD <max> Yes Graeme [9:41] <RHD> buy SOES [9:41] <RHD> buy ISLD careful [9:41] <Graeme> Sorry to interrupt again - what stock are we watching? [9:41] <RHD> buy SOES only [9:41] <RHD> DELL [9:41] <RHD> buy SOES only [9:41] <Graeme> thx [9:41] <RHD> Bid ARCA 11/16 etc [9:42] <RHD> buy ARCA [9:42] <RHD> buy SOES [9:42] <RHD> buy SOES [9:42] <RHD> buy ARCA [9:42] <RHD> I assuming a buy of 1000 BTW [9:42] <RHD> buy SOES MKT [9:43] <Graeme> Ross - can u elaborate on the critera for you decision making? [9:43] <RHD> yes I will [9:43] <RHD> ok so lets talk about what we just saw [9:43] <RHD> You will notice that I moved between ARCA, ISLD and SOES [9:43] <RHD> quite a bit [9:43] <RHD> the most important thing to keep in mind [9:43] <RHD> if you use ARCA alot is this [9:44] <RHD> If you see all those Chippies buying at the "offer" denoted [9:44] <RHD> by ARCHIPS on the bid [9:44] <RHD> you know you are in line behind them [9:44] <RHD> the chance or getting that fill falls dramatically [9:44] <RHD> so you saw that when that happened I went to SOES [9:45] <RHD> and when all else failed you may have seen that I sensed [9:45] <RHD> that GSCO on the offer was about to movre [9:45] <RHD> so I went SOES MKT [9:45] <RHD> At time we saw ISLD [9:45] <RHD> but keep in mind that ISLD with its sizes etc.. [9:45] <RHD> can often leave you with a partial [9:46] <RHD> Notice I said 'careful" [9:46] <RHD> because ISLD was showing 1000 as was INCA [9:46] <RHD> I wanted that ISLD but I knew I was risking a partial [9:46] <RHD> but I wanted to own the stock there [9:46] <RHD> When the ASK got deep [9:46] <RHD> you will notice that I stuck to SOES [9:46] <RHD> that way I dont take a chance with ARCA [9:47] <RHD> and getting hit by INCA or BTRD and wasting comm. [9:47] <RHD> dollars [9:47] <RHD> so when possible I also [9:47] <RHD> try to reduce my [9:47] <RHD> commissions [9:47] <RHD> here on DELL [9:47] <RHD> we see 2 ECNs on the ASK [9:47] <RHD> I can only use ARCA or ISLD [9:48] <RHD> but depending on whether or not there was a "CHIP" in [9:48] <RHD> front of me [9:48] <Graeme> why not SOES? [9:48] <RHD> is how I would decide [9:48] <RHD> ECN's ore not SOESable so [9:48] <RHD> SOES is out of the question [9:48] <RHD> here I would use SOES [9:48] <RHD> its deep with MM [9:49] <ToddB> Ross, does a SOES mkt allow you multiple executions at different prices if the ask moves without having to use two tickets? [9:49] <RHD> but there are no Chips [9:49] <Graeme> Sorry - I am stupid - so who do I use SOES with? whats the criteria for a decision to use soes? [9:49] <RHD> then again INCA is there I why [9:49] <RHD> waste the comm. [9:49] <RHD> Toddb, yes it does [9:49] <ToddB> thx [9:49] <RHD> SOES is to the MM only [9:49] <RHD> so again here I would use SOES not ARCA [9:50] <RHD> everyone should understand this point [9:50] <Graeme> Ok - so i can't SOES ISLD ARCA etc... [9:50] <RHD> SOES here not ARCA [9:50] <RHD> Gra, correct [9:50] <Graeme> But I can SOES GSCO etc... [9:50] <RHD> here as it thins out we [9:50] <RHD> start thinking ARCA [9:50] <RHD> now ARCA only [9:50] <RHD> now ARCA only [9:50] <RHD> now ARCA only [9:50] <RHD> maybe ISLD but becareful [9:51] <runner> What is the fast why uot of stock SOES market or ARCA market when you are in trouble? [9:51] <RHD> as you see [9:51] <RHD> you may have just got a partial [9:51] <RHD> runner, all depends on what we are discussing here [9:51] <RHD> those that use our system and used to be [9:51] <RHD> with DATEK, Etrade etc... [9:52] <RHD> those orders are basically SOES orders [9:52] <RHD> but they do not kill if they miss [9:52] <Graeme> ?? [9:52] <RHD> so just understand that is what SOES is to HTML type systems [9:52] <RHD> so lets go back to it for a few more mins [9:53] <RHD> and add bidding to the equation also [9:53] <RHD> Bid ISLD or ARCA [9:53] <RHD> Bid ISLD or ARCA 7/8 [9:53] <RHD> or buy SOES [9:53] <RHD> or buy ISLD [9:53] <RHD> wide open here [9:53] <gainer> I just got filled for 100 on SOES at 7/8 and then my order was killed [9:54] <RHD> because the Ask is 15/16 [9:54] <ToddB> that's why I asked that earlier gainer. [9:54] <gainer> it was n't when I entered [9:54] <ToddB> partial fill and kill [9:54] <Graeme> Was it a LMyT order? [9:54] <gainer> that's just as bad as ISLD [9:54] <altaaboy> Ross does Soes tier limits only apply to MM's [9:54] <gainer> limit [9:55] <RHD> alta, yes [9:55] <RHD> gainier, you hit the last lot at that price [9:55] <RHD> a LMT SOES will kill [9:55] <gainer> ok [9:55] <altaaboy> ok [9:55] <RHD> at a new price LVL [9:55] <RHD> a MKT SOES will not [9:55] <RHD> hmmm [9:55] <RHD> no vol. [9:55] <RHD> q's until it starts moving again/ [9:55] <RHD> ? [9:56] <RHD> As an added speed idea [9:56] <rwencil> RHD..list ECN's? [9:56] <RHD> you may want to have 2 MM's and the big OES all set to the same stock [9:57] <RHD> but each set to a different route and order type [9:57] <RHD> then just press the Buy button on the screen that fits the time [9:57] <ToddB> Ross how would sell here at 60? [9:57] <RHD> ATTN, BTRD, INCA, ARCA, ISLD, REDI, [9:57] <Graeme> Ross - so today - when i was trying to sell CSCO and I was using ARCA, I saw lots of T&S order popping off at my ask - I was on top of the list on L2 - but took a while to get filled... i am afraid to cancel the order and re-issue using another ECN cause i have to go to the back of the line - suggestions? [9:57] <RHD> Sell ARCA or ISLD 60 [9:58] <RHD> Gra, there is no line to LVL [9:58] <RHD> first there is not first filled [9:58] <Graeme> Oh [9:58] <RHD> Todd, and you not "selling" [9:58] <Graeme> But that is tru of ARCA? [9:58] <RHD> your "offering" [9:58] <RHD> Gra, yes [9:58] <ToddB> correct. thx. [9:58] <RHD> ok, lets try this [9:58] <ToddB> it's a tough execution to hit. [9:58] <RHD> offer 15/16 ARCA [9:58] <RHD> offer 15/16 ARCA [9:59] <RHD> or sell SOES [9:59] <RHD> or buy ARCA [9:59] <RHD> or buy SN 15/16 [9:59] <RHD> Buy SN 15/16 [9:59] <RHD> Buy ARCA 15 /16 [9:59] <runner> Is there extra charge if you hit INCA or BTRD ? [9:59] <RHD> runner, yes there is BTRD .015 and INCA just raised their price to .0125 [9:59] <gabeo> RHD, can you split the trade quantities between two routes, like 1K for SOES and 1K for ISLD at the same time? [10:00] <RHD> gabeo, 2 tickets [10:00] <RHD> Buy ARCA 15/16 [10:00] <RHD> or Buy SN 7/8 [10:00] <RHD> or Buy SN 15/16 [10:00] <altaaboy> sn broadcast? [10:00] <runner> How can you avoid there charges ? [10:01] <RHD> runner, thats what were teaching here [10:01] <RHD> yes SN broad,here [10:01] <RHD> or Buy SN 15/16 [10:01] <rwencil> When SN broad v pref? [10:01] <RHD> I want the liquidity [10:01] <RHD> in this situation [10:02] <RHD> no one showing big [10:02] <altaaboy> SN pref when selling into strength? [10:02] <RHD> buy SN 60 [10:02] <RHD> broad [10:02] <RHD> buy SOES [10:02] <RHD> buy SOES MKT [10:03] <RHD> scratch that last one [10:03] <RHD> mistake [10:03] <ToddB> btw - thanks for that buy call at 7/8. [10:03] <RHD> remember to do this my eyes are not only [10:03] <RHD> glued to the MM screen but also the T&S [10:03] <RHD> lol [10:03] <RHD> you have to see the prints [10:04] <RHD> if the stock is moving on no trades [10:04] <RHD> you should really use caution [10:04] <RHD> often what is teremed a "head fake" [10:04] <RHD> bid 1/16 [10:04] <RHD> selelrs [10:04] <RHD> sell SOES [10:04] <RHD> Sell SN 1/16 [10:05] <rwencil> When SN broad vs pref? [10:05] <RHD> I want the MM to see me [10:05] <RHD> I need bang for my buck [10:05] <RHD> buy SOES mkt [10:05] <RHD> cancel [10:05] <RHD> buy ARCA [10:05] <RHD> buy ARCA [10:05] <RHD> buy SOES [10:05] <RHD> chip ahead [10:06] <RHD> cross, cancel [10:06] <RHD> bid 1/16 SN [10:06] <RHD> ISLD size [10:06] <RHD> chips ahead [10:06] <ToddB> Ross - can we try something with a thin LVII. like AMZN? [10:06] <RHD> ok, lets go to AMZN [10:07] <RHD> spread, use SN here [10:07] <RHD> bid 3/8 ARCA [10:07] <RHD> or Buy SN [10:07] <runner> ROSS how about level III are going to have that ?? [10:07] <RHD> yuck [10:07] <RHD> runner, funny [10:07] <RHD> buy 1/8 SN [10:08] <RHD> or buy 3/16 SN [10:08] <RHD> ISLD gets disrespect [10:08] <RHD> so I would undercut him [10:08] <RHD> and hope a MM would hit me [10:08] <RHD> buy 3/16 SN [10:08] <ToddB> disrespect from the MM's? [10:09] <RHD> buy ARCA 5/16 also [10:09] <RHD> ISLD is going to get traded around [10:09] <RHD> a lot more than a SN trade [10:09] <RHD> so I can often get a full fill below the best ISLD bid [10:09] <ToddB> so when SOES isn't really an option you go to SN, true? [10:09] <RHD> correct [10:09] <RHD> or ARCA depending on the other ECNs [10:10] <RHD> bid 1/4 SN [10:10] <ToddB> cool, thx. [10:10] <RHD> now NITE is bidding [10:10] <RHD> so Im rethinking here [10:10] <ToddB> are you making your price choices by the T&S? [10:10] <gainer> would you go below best bid on other stocks? [10:10] <RHD> ATTN is also offering [10:10] <RHD> so agin Im rethinking [10:10] <BillyD> Ross-I had a soes sell limit 1/16 below the bid when there were5 MM for 24 sec and no fill...soes is terrible unless it is a slow stock agree [10:10] <RHD> this is where you will se many trades going off between the spread [10:11] <RHD> Bily, if that que is full, you can wait for mins [10:11] <altaaboy> Ross if no ECNS on other side of you dont use ARCA? [10:11] <RHD> this is all ECN's so you have to be careful [10:11] <BillyD> Ross...the bid never dropped and is what confuses me [10:12] <RHD> alta, depends what ECN and the size there showing [10:12] <altaaboy> ok [10:12] <RHD> Billy u were selling to the Bid? [10:12] <RHD> hitting the bid? [10:12] <BillyD> I was trying to ensure getting out just in case cause CIEN a fast stock [10:12] <BillyD> selling below the bid by 1/16 [10:13] <RHD> Gang, my meeting just showed up. I have to take it. Can we do more tomorrow? [10:13] <ToddB> thanks a lot ross [10:13] <BillyD> yes thx ross [10:13] <murf> Lets [10:13] <gainer> thanks Ross [10:13] <RHD> Billy, that may not work well as it is still a SOES que issue [10:13] <rwencil> must do [10:13] <runner> Why there is extra charge on INCA.. etc.. ? [10:13] <RHD> . [10:13] <altaaboy> Yeah thanks Ross real helpful [10:13] <SteveB> thanks! [10:13] <RHD> Be back in a bit. [10:13] <gainer> almost made some money there [10:13] *** RHD is now known as RHD_AWAY [10:14] <altaaboy> Anybody care to summarize this stuff? [10:14] <NINJA> That is the knid of training we need more of. [10:14] <altaaboy> yeah real nice [10:15] <gainer> yeah that was cool [10:15] <Nesi> email will be send...