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Gold/Mining/Energy : Gold Derivatives -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Zardoz who wrote (1)	9/21/1998 7:39:00 PM
From: teevee	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39

Hi, The USA has finally said no to the IMF. As a result of this, no one else will replenish IMF cash. All of the deferred bad debts held by many nations and their insolvent banks will now come home to roost. What the market has been saying to me is that gold has served third world and Asian buyers very well. As their economies and currencies have and continue to collapse, they have been able to sell gold and buy something to eat. Gold buyers today are literally putting food on the table for many people in Asian and third work countries. I concur with your target for lower gold prices (you can't eat it). regards, teevee

To: Zardoz who wrote (1)	9/22/1998 12:58:00 AM
From: IngotWeTrust	Respond to of 39

H sez: Gold=controlled by only 2 varibles: Supply, Demand. WRONG! You are WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG...DEAD WRONG! Gold PRICES are NOW controlled by 4 variables 1) Physical Gold Supply Available for Delivery 2) Physical Gold Demand Needed to be Delivered 3) Value of Time 4) Cost of Money The POG of gold is CURRENTLY controlled by SYNTHETIC SUPPLY of paper gold pricing transactions, and not the physical exchange of gold. The cumulative result of paper gold trading affects what us physical gold players receive for our product. Deriv Players buy what you don't take delivery of and sell what we don't own. We participate in a parallel world that negatively affects the PRICE of GOLD. Currently paper players have sold approximately 14,000 TONS of something owned and can't MAKE delivery of if collective lives depended upon it. That is pent up demand if I ever saw it and it will correct this oversold condition eventually. You deal in paper time and cost of money, via gold options and claim you never lose, Hutch. I'm not that arrogant. I've won at options and lost money in options. I deal in physical gold with costs less than $20 per oz. And everyone can see and do the simple math I engage in. $290ish T/oz selling price, minus $20 T/oz acquisition/refining cost. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PURE PROFIT EACH AND EVERY TIME You call my declarations: self-promotion; I call it simple math examples. I state it clearly what I do: I prospect for, locate, and accumulate/gather gold; I sell what I find and/or recycle for MORE than my acquisition costs, EACH AND EVERY TIME You put me down for participating in physical gold capitalism and speaking frankly about it WHEN ASKED OR CHALLENGED on this forum because it seems impossible to do: Buy/find/recyle for such a low LOW price and sell the physical product so high. worldaccessnet.com for more information regarding cheap gold ....Oh, and thanks for inviting me to your new kingdom, Hutch. *a repost of an earlier rebuttal to Hutch's edited post on Gold Price Monitor "Piss-A-Thon" as giraffe touted earlier today.

To: Zardoz who wrote (1)	9/22/1998 1:05:00 AM
From: IngotWeTrust	Respond to of 39

Hutch lies again: "Options only smooth out volatility." HA!!! That's the best one I've heard in a long time. Gold Options/Derivatives affect the price of gold by adding the 3rd and 4th variable. You must be absolutely green w/jealously, since you are only buying and selling TIME... You can't stand the scrutiny, Hutchie Pooh, here or on the GPM thread... Oh, And speaking of me insulting folks, the only thing that is insulting is the way you treat those with superior intelligence and arguments who insist on pointing out the risk of losses in delta and gamma'd derivs games and their effect on the PRICE OF PHYSICAL GOLD in my pocket, in bank vaults, in Ft Knox, in Irian Jaya. Have fun over here, Hutch. And if you ever own up to ever losing one red cent in options, there will be friends who will give me a head's up! Good Luck, Mr. Derivation of...

To: Zardoz who wrote (1)	9/22/1998 1:54:00 AM
From: IngotWeTrust	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 39

Porter Davis, 20yr vet TSE Gold opt/spec. for ABX & a cpl other major TSE firms posted this on SI about 4 months ago. If you won't listen to me, maybe you'll at least give pause and listen to him, for you are just a tiny frog in a grrrrrrreat big POG-pond, Hutch and have a lot to learn!!!! and I joyfully quote: 5/26/98 Hi, Porter, I learned that GT global has a fund (Canadian Income Class) that uses covered calls. I was told that they used off the market options (written for the fund by large firms). How many of Canadian options are traded this way? Thx, Will. Porter's reply: Will, I assume you are referring to the 'over-the-counter' options. The sad fact is that for every option traded on the TSE there are probably 8 or 10 traded "off the floor" or as we say, OTC. The big firms that engage in this take a huge third-party credit risk (remember Confed Life?), plus they carry an un-quantifiable, but huge, market risk 'off-the-books'. If they, for example, sell 1000 TXO puts to a third party OTC, they may hedge by selling 80 TXF futures. The problem comes if there is a market 'break' like last October or as in 1987. If the T35 falls, say 25 points, they are no longer hedged...they must sell more TXFs of TIPs or TXO options--basically anything they can find a bid for. Multiply this by several firms here (and dozens in the States), and there is an almost unbelieveable selling that would appear in a severe break. Sure gives me pause... The very NEXT day, Porter was back on his thread with the following follow-up commentary...very appropo to this discussion: 5/27/98 Au traded down this AM amidst turmoil in Asia, a sharply delining $ in Europe, stock markets crashing in Europe, Asia & US and a developing banking crisis in Japan. The yen was also down sharply this morning. So to what do we owe this recent unraveling of the Price of Gold? In a pattern that's become all too familiar to gold investors, the POG plummets in the face of OPTIONS EXPIRY/FIRST NOTICE WEEK as a time when POG is going to plummet. This, after all, is the age of paper -- paper contracts on paper contracts on paper contracts. To call it a house of cards would be a kindness. So each month, in order to keep the bullion banks & trading houses from going under, these derivative positions have to be protected. So, Will, go out in the future and short the market prior to these important dates, get the hedge funds to pile on, and you've got a declining price gold market. And, so it goes." *********** There you have it, Hutch, an option specialist I admire have made money with, and upon occasion, saved money by listening to, an options player who is honest, LIKE MYSELF, who speaks of options' very existence affecting the PRICE OF GOLD as well as the gold stocks** which he is personally involved with. No "smoothing volatility garbage" evident in his presentation of facts. Now, YOU HAVE A CHOICE: you going to continue to stick your head in the sand, Hutch and tell us you never lose a dime and that options are the safe infallible way to make an honest buck and don't hurt the price of gold? Or are you going to dig a little deeper, get a little more honest with yourself and those who ask for and risk on your options advice in your "company" that you like to brag about in your profile, and in your various options postings? Hmmmmmm.... Think I'll put my 10 C notes on Porter, thank you very much! Ole Porter didn't get to stick around in the Gold Options biz by lying to himself or others. Suggest you don't try it either!