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To: Daniel Schuh who wrote (21023)	9/23/1998 4:06:00 PM
From: Charles Hughes	Respond to of 24154

>>> I was always a bit confused how Microsoft's transparently subversive effort was supposed to take anyone in, in the broader development community anyway. <<< And yet it did. Kids, is why. Seemingly tens of thousands of programmers writing totally non-portable applications using J++, COM, and the Windows API. They all started to show up on comp.lang.java.* over a year ago, bitching about why they couldn't sell their non-portable apps in java-land, whining about the security model, complaining about why the pure-Java crowd wouldn't take them seriously, totally ignorant of the principles of portability, write-once, applet/internet security needs, the JVM design features... They managed to totally discombobalate an already young, shaky and inexperienced Java development community. Most of the bandwidth on the fora was devoted to the warring between those factions, rather than helping each other with our projects. (For the time being, I've quit in disgust, until the dust settles and there is a decent level of organization, anyway. Back to C++ - a MSFT victory in my own pants :-) The pressure from MSFT got Sun to release one ill-thought-out GUI API package design after another to turn into code, trying to beat a clock that wasn't really ticking as fast as they thought it was. They could have just copied one of the great C++ GUI class library packages into Java and had the job done in 6 months. But since to the Java kiddies, C++ is the devil, that was unacceptable. Also, it must be said, SunSoft has not been real big on taking user (programmer user) input to heart. NIH, big time. But MSFT took all these problems and magnified them at least one order of magnitude. Cheers, Chaz