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Pastimes : Religion on SI -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: PROLIFE who wrote (1157)	9/25/1998 6:59:00 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1542

<<Others could use documented arguments one after the other, they are all available. From one end of the spectrum to the other.>> Agreed. That is if we are talking about the credibility of the literature embodied within the "Holy Bible." I don't think it stands up as a test of faith in Christianity and most people don't fall back on it that way. <<Bottom line is this. The scriptures tell of a savior coming to earth.(Isaiah 53) He did.(John 1:14) He made His Father happy.(Matt.4:17) He died on the cross to save you and me from an eternity without God.(John 14:6) The scriptures say He did this for you and me. And then He went and SAT DOWN at the right hand of God.(Hebrews 1:1-3) The job FINISHED.>> Bottom line here is you are basing your religious perspective on documentation, and its the flawed documentation we're referring to above. <<Now it is up to you and me to claim that and believe it, or call God a liar and say another man farther down in history has the real deal, and a word that says Jesus did not die on the cross. I choose Jesus. What about you?>> I believe in The God. The God who I've been aware of at one level or another consciously all of my life. I believe in no God but God. Now, do I choose Jesus? I do. I choose Jesus as the light and the way to God. So, in that sense as my salvation. Jesus, according to the book you are refering to said "not mine but thy will be done." There are hundreds of references from the Holy Bible that some one unindoctrinated could point out, which clearly show that Jesus did not consider himself God. God is all powerful. If human beings can make him suffer, where did all powerful go. Jesus prayed, who did he pray to. What did he do that for? Humans pray because they are commanded to by God and thus it is a need. Jesus had all of the same needs we do (according to what he said in the Holy Bible). Jesus said he had to deal with all of the same things we do he was tempted. Yet you can't tempt God can you. Jesus ate and drank etc. etc. etc. Jesus was a man, not God. As you said earlier when you refered to Mohammad as another "man" down the road. There are scrolls still in existence from Jesus's period that demonstrate the commonality of calling bad people, "the children of the devil," and good people "the children of God." Jesus himself did that. It was also common to label a person who behaved very righteously by saying you are the Son of God. Clearly Jesus was without sin and deserved that notification more than anybody. So its not surprising that John would have named him as the only one deserving of the title. I don't believe it in the literal sense. You have to believe the literature to be accurate for that and I don't. I don't believe God is a human being sitting on a cloud who decided to have carnal knowledge of Mary. God forgive me for repeating the idea. I do believe in immaculate conception, but God only needs to will a thing for it to happen. <<Now it is up to you and me to claim that and believe it, or call God a liar and say another man farther down in history has the real deal, and a word that says Jesus did not die on the cross. I choose Jesus. What about you?>> Too suggest that I am calling God a liar, unless I validate you with this simplistic statement, which is far from the authentic words of God is oppressive and typically Christian. You're not talking about an across town (or ocean) rivalry here. I choose Jesus, I choose Mohammad, and I choose every other messenger God has sent to Earth to align myself with. It is only you who are labeling the Words of God lies, by insisting I must pick from among your collection, and not look else where. You have obviously not looked at the Quran. You have looked at your back yard and claimed loyalty to the religion of your fathers. Which is really patriatism not truth seeking. I do believe a principle of faith essential in the message of Jesus is to seek (continually) the truth. The problem with the simple test of fellowship Christianity is framed by short circuits that. It isn't all there is to what you believe. Don't you believe in compassion, charity, a merciful God, eternity and more. I suspect your beliefs, your faith in the Justice of the Universe created by an almighty God goes very deep and has dimension to it. The Quran is validated as an authentic message from God. It confirms all aspects of those principles of faith without the need to discount certain aspects of the literature because of the contradiction or compromise it presents. So the bottom line is: If you have time and your not afraid of what you would have to sacrafice for the truth you might want to check it out.

To: PROLIFE who wrote (1157)	9/28/1998 11:56:00 AM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1542

Steve, Chris, DCF and others, My comments on documentation is commonly known by people in my age bracket. Especially for those of us raised in a Judao-Christian atmosphere. I don't intend to hang on documents to justify my faith. I found a great deal of spiritual nourishment in my youth reading the Holy Bible. I have read the Quran and found no conflict with my faith. I got caught up in the document validation and authentication discussion that Steve and Raymond were carrying on. I don't promise that wont happen again but I must state emphatically at this point that I am not a scholar of either religion and am definitely not qualified as a spokesman for Islam or against Christianity. My posts on this thread or any other should be taken only for what they are, an expression of my faith. This faith originated in my Christian heritage and continues and is confirmed in the Islamic religion. That said, I want to again try to clarify what I believe and how that belief is not contradictory in my understanding of the two sources of documentation, Quran and Holy Bible. As a youth having been preached to on a number of occassions, I took it on my self to read the new testament of the Holy Bible. As I did this I formed an impression of Jesus. I was impressed by his teachings to his followers, by the miracles he performed, etc. I found in this study a wonderful and irrefutable example of the way all human beings should attempt to live out their days on this earth. Jesus made it abundantly clear that the entire message of Old and New Testament could be hung on two principles To do unto others as you would have them do unto you and to worship no God but God. This as you know is termed the Golden Rule. I was enriched as I read and followed the life of Jesus and confirmed for my self that he was devoted to guiding his followers in understanding the application of the Golden Rule in all aspects of life. This for me has always been the essence my reward with having read the New Testament. Now in modern day life as a youth I was disappointed when I went to churches and to preachers and did not find this to be the focus of the church. When expressing my concerns I was advised by several opinions that I respected to focus on the message of Jesus not on what is happening in the Church or being done by individual priests or church goers. I think that is good advise and I would apply the same to Islam. That is, I don't focus on the position taken by so called Islamic nations or on the behavior of some individual Muslims. I do focus on the message of Islam. In the tests of fellowship, for Christianity, the focus is on salvation through the cross. The "scriptures" that are used to base this standard on are not based on the sayings of Jesus, or the message Jesus was commanded to bring to his followers. It is based on what was said about him or attributed to him. It is also sterile in reference to the Golden Rule. Again the Golden Rule for me has always been where I felt the truth confirmed in my heart. Setting aside my opinions about the documentation, I can believe in the message of Jesus as presented in the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran. I can also believe in the message of Mohammed as presented in the Holy Quran. And, I will say it again I see no contradiction in my faith. Faith as opposed to religious doctrine. The doctrines are the religion, faith is in my heart. I can find confirmation for my faith being based on the Golden Rule in both disciplines. I can find a focus on that message in both disciplines. I can find Geo-politico, Socio-religio divisiveness in both disciplines that is based on what appears to me to be a violation of the Golden Rule. So, this confirms for me what the Bible and the Holy Quran say I can expect from the world. That doesn't change my faith or religion. I believe in God and the message that has been confirmed by all of his messengers since Adam.