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To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (69062)	10/4/1998 2:13:00 PM
From: Ken Beal	Respond to of 176387

*--- OT ---* Hi Chuz, Re: Killing to survive is one thing. Killing for sport is quite another. So to preserve the ecosystem and give the Indians their fun we could build them "whaling simulators." Or just let them hunt each other, and the problem will eventually go away. ;-) Cheers, KenB

To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (69062)	10/4/1998 3:01:00 PM
From: Fangorn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 176387

*OT* CTC, One case destroys your position. re >The difference is that carrots are cultivated, and gathering of carrots in no way endangers any ecosystem. The same is true of cattle and chickens.< Man's use of domestic animals and plants is the leading cause of ecological damage there is, yet you seem to claim the person that prefers venison is somehow less moral than the beef eater. The Sahara grows because of overgrazing, our own west, public lands included, are being over used to raise beef as we speak. The large predators were hunted out to protect cattle, not because some yokels were killing for pleasure although no doubt some were motivated as much by bloodlust as bounty money. The Amazon basin is being logged off to raise cattle, the land is so poor that after grazing for a few years it can no longer support grazing so they burn down another thousand acres and move in. As for the carrot not harming any ecosystem, a large portion are grown in California on irrigated land using lots of fertilizer, pesticides and fuel. Large portions of the San Fernando Valley are becoming too salty to be productive. Ask the Mexicans living on the banks of what used to be the Colorado river about ecological damage caused by carrots, lettuce, etc. Chicken farming, if you want to call those egg and drumstick factories farms, have caused a lot of messes. Trophy hunting, which you condemn out of hand, has done more to preserve Africa's magnificent wildlife than all of the tree huggers put together (Don't get me wrong, I hug trees all the time but I don't turn down a venison dinner either). re >I never claimed that the tribe's hunt was in and of itself ecologically destructive. What I did claim was that it is an abomination.< This is no more an abomination than what happens to cattle, chicken, fish, carrots, etc. Hunting a species to extinction is an abomination. Harvesting a renewable resource (even whales) in a sustainable way is more ecologically valid than buying that steak or carrot at the local store. re> I think it is high time that people began to learn to live within the context of the worlds, which means they must accept being part of ecosystems, not apart from them.< It is you who seem to think human's are not part of the ecosystem. The fact is that humans have been the top predator for a couple million years and your dislike of hunting is something only possible in a civilization that has insulated you from the source of your daily sustenance. Every deer hunter I know does enjoy the hunt, they get a real thrill when they can drop a deer where it stands with a clean shot. They will also stay out all night tracking if necessary to make sure a wounded animal is dispatched as quickly as possible. They also invariably eat what they kill. But you seem to think that that pleasure makes them immoral but that the guy who kills (for you) the cow or chicken is somehow better. Obviously I think your rationalizing to support what is essentially an emotional position is grade "A" bologna. Because whales (or Bambi) are cute it is an "abomination" to hunt and eat them but it's okay to raise a chicken (beaks and claws removed) in a foot square cage with two others until it is big enough to make nice fryer (and don't worry about all the chicken excrement, feathers and bones that get dumped out by the river).