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Pastimes : Religion on SI -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Raymond James Norris who wrote (1348)	10/10/1998 12:45:00 AM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1542

Raymond, Thank you for getting back to me. I was sure you would get back to me, even after the long delay before your response. I understand everything you said. But, this is what you have failed to address in your response. The pagans did not perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa for some reason because of Manat, the pagan goddess. There is no debate about that! Its clearly in this story. Here it is again: "But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume lhram for worshipping an idol called "Manat" which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa." As a result, when these pagans were converted to Islam, why would Allah fail to reveal to these pagans, now Islamic people, something that was so important to him? Something so important that the Hadith specifically states that Tawaf was incomplete if not performed between Safa ans Marwa! Why would Allah let them go on with a pagan respect for a sun goddess before he completed his revelation about Tawaf? I would think, logically, that a perfect God and a perfect book would not leave any stone unturned and end anything that had pagan descent. And you said: "I'm giving you some background as to why Muslims perform the Tafwa between the 2 mountains. It is not because the Pagans did it as they did not. It is because of Hagar's struggle and God's Miracle for her." And you cannot deny, the Hadith clearly states they did not perform Tawaf between the 2 mountains because of the pagan sun goddess. So I could accept your explanation of where the Tawaf originates from. But obviously, to those in this story in the Hadith, they lost the origin of Tawaf. That is why they did not perform it between the 2 mountains. And when the Qu'ran was given, your "so called" perfect book by your "so called" perfect God Allah, why would have Allah left out some real important detail to him? One that would invalidate the Tawaf completely, something so important to perform? And then, you show us how Allah reveals things in pieces. OK, I accept that! But this? Something so pagan? Something that would disrespect Allah so much? Something Allah revealed to Muhammad later, that if you did not do it, Tawaf was not completed successfully? Tawaf, which you say has such deep roots, important to the heritage of your faith and belief in Allah? He would allow these people who are obviously confused about the whole ritual, that stopped doing it correctly because of a pagan goddess, to continue the ritual incorrectly because of the sun goddess? Raymond, for a logical mind such as yours, your explanation does not address the main issue . And I am a bit surprised after all this time to respond, how incomplete your response is. Thank you for you response though. If you care to explain this issue further, please feel free to. But left like this, their are severe doubts left unaddressed...... God Bless, Steve

To: Raymond James Norris who wrote (1348)	10/10/1998 6:18:00 PM
From: Chris land	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 1542

<<<After Abraham left his wife and son, Hagar needed to provide drink and shelter for her child. Fearing death, she placed Ishmael on the ground and began searching for water. The two mountains she searched between are "Safa and Marwa." She went between them 7 times searching for water. She could not find any. However, God would not let them alone. >>> The bible says that Hagar was Sarai's Egyptian handmaid and not Abraham's wife. In other words she was an Egyptian bondwoman. As to Abraham leaving Ishmael and Hagar you must read again. In Genesis it says that he sent them away from him because the blessings were meant for Isaac. As to Hagar searching between two mountains 7 times for water is pure myth. It would take days of hard labor to do that task and without water no one would have survived. Besides the bible says she wandered in the wilderness until the water was expended and then she placed Ishmael under a shrub a bowshot away so she wouldn't see him die. Chris

To: Raymond James Norris who wrote (1348)	10/11/1998 7:10:00 PM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST	Respond to of 1542

Raymond, After re-reading my response I noticed I said, "So I could accept your explanation of where the Tawaf originates from". This is misleading! I understand what you have said about Tawaf origins. I am accepting what you have said in respect to not debating it right now. But I do not necessarily agree about its accuracy. I would have to do some research on your story. I am choosing not to address this issue right now, for there is so much important stuff to talk about right now, I do not want to focus in on Tawaf origins. I will accept your explanation in the sense that I will avoid it at the current time. Sorry for the confusion, if there is any! Steve