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To: Raymond James Norris who wrote (1350)	10/10/1998 10:04:00 AM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST	Respond to of 1542

Raymond, I assumed if God tells you to do something, it is important! I guess you feel my assumption is wrong. OK! Let's move on because we have exhaustively studied this verse and we will have to agree to disagree, as any two people in a debate must do. Lets address this post now: Message 5872710 Lets talk about why a true prophet of God would teach what he has.... God Bless, Steve

To: Raymond James Norris who wrote (1350)	10/13/1998 12:13:00 AM
From: IN_GOD_I_TRUST	Respond to of 1542

Raymond, You are have left me eagerly awaiting responses. So as I pass time waiting, I decided to re-read your last post. I have to re-address it, as you are incorrect about a number of things in it, that should not be left unaddressed. Originally when I read it, I thought let's leave this topic alone already because of its lengthy discussion. But after re-reading this post I can not with so many things you are in error with. I'm sure you won't mind as it is your faith that we are discussing. And you claim a perfect faith so I'm sure you love discussing your writings, as I love mine. You said: "What are you talking about? How is Tawafa "so important Him?" According to the Hadith, the people did perform Tawafa before becoming Muslims:' How could you say when your God tells you to do something in his perfect book it is not important? Everything in that book should be important. Raymond, I'm surprised at this comment! Did I say that the pagans did not perfrom Tawaf before becoming Muslims? Go re-read "all" my posts. You could not be any more incorrect. I said, time and time again, they did perform Tawaf, just not between Safa and Marwa. You said: "The People who were Pagans but reverted to Islam wanted to know whether or not it was permissible to perform Tawafa between Safa and Marwa. They used to do it as Pagans and noticed God did not include it in a particular surah. So they asked the Prophet concerning it and verses were revealed." You're absolutely wrong according to your own writings. Let's re-read the Hadith: "But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume lhram for worshipping an idol called "Manat" which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa." It clearly states that they did not do it because whoever assummed Ihram did not consider it right to do. It is not because the Surah included it or not. That's not what this says........ You said: "Peforming Tawafa is no way "essential" to being Muslim." Did I say it was? I did say God wanted people to do it, as it is in his writings. But I never said it was essential to being a Muslim. And if I did implicitly, or said something sounding like it, I apologize. You said: "There is no pagan descent. I told you it was Hagar who performed the Tawafa originally while looking for water." I never said Tawaf had pagan descent. Re-read my posts again. I said not performing it between the mountains had pagan descent, based upon the teachings of Muhammad! You said: "Unfortunately I can, as the question arose from something that the Pagans had once did and were asking whether or not it was still permissible. Look at what Abu Bakr replied and the answer is there. It's clear that the Pagans had performed the Tawafa before being Muslims" Again I repeat, I knew they performed Tawfa as pagans. Just not between the mountains! You said: "So called? How about getting some manners and learning what "Tact" means." I thought I had it! I'll try harder though to have tact with you! You said: "Why is it "so important to perform?" God said it in his your holy book...thats why! Unless you don't consider everything in God's writings important! You said; "Steve, again your misunderstanding of the facts and in this case specifically, the meanings of words has totally made this issue "difficult." There is no problem unless one has insufficient understanding on the subject. "Tawfa" is not some ritual that includes going between the Safa and Marwa. "Tawfa" simply means going back and forth between. People do "Tawfa" around the Ka'ba while praising God and they do "Tawfa" between Safa and Marwa, again, while Praising God. "Tawfa" is not completing both of these functions. It's not "unsuccessful" if someone leaves out a part or something. It doesn't "invalidate" Tawfa, because Tawfa can't really be invalidated. It is simply the act of going around or between two things while praising God." Oh Raymond! But it is. Your absolutely wrong according to your own writings again. Let's re-read them: Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 27, Number 18: Narrated Hisham Ibn 'Urwa from his father who said: ... "The Hajj or 'Umra of the person who does not perform the going (Tawaf) between As-Safa and Al-Marwa is incomplete in Allah's sight. Is the Hadith wrong? That is what you would be saying.... You claim it's my misunderstanding of the facts and my misunderstanding of the meanings of words which has totally made this issue difficult. You claim there is a problem because I have insufficient understanding on the subject. I disagree! I think I am understanding it clearly enough. You have not given me one bit of proof to the contrary. I'm backing up my statements with verifiable sources to you, the Qu'ran and the Hadith. Show me where I am not! Show me where I am misunderstanding. Now you can see why I had to go back to your post on re-read. Everything you had posted was wrong, except probably one thing. You are probably right about me not being the most tactful person in the world. But I'll try to work on that! God, show us all the truth! In your name I pray....Amen! God Bless You, Steve