SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Bill Clinton Scandal - SANITY CHECK -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: jbe who wrote (10494)10/21/1998 12:42:00 PM
From: mrknowitall  Respond to of 67261
 
jbe - much food for thought there. I still believe there is a parallel, not on the fringe that your post so aptly points out belongs there (the paranoid), but on a more fundamental basis - truth and fact vs. the rationalization spin and ends-justifying-means which so poisons politics today.

I see this as a result of our society's accelerated pace of information flow; we are a nation of headline scanners and sound-bite hearers (pardon the grammatical stretch - I purposefully didn't use listeners) with little or no time to see into any given issue in depth. Hence, we see the media present us with what we are seeking - the pyramidic style in print journalism taken to it's extreme in a media such as television. Our short attention span is ripe for the kind of spin that so powerfully influences those who have neither the intellectual horsepower nor the access to more information on which to make electoral decisions.

It is a culture ripe for the planting of lies and the creation of myths that just won't go away. It is also the fertile bedding soil of stereotyping and sweeping generalization that irritate me to no end when they are used to somehow "defend" someone because "everybody does it."

Thus, I believe that truth is the ONLY thing that can stand in the way of the kind of decay that leads to a cultural melt-down.

Relativism wins when honesty backs down. Clinton and his supporters are pushing for "feel good" relativism that fertilizes the ground for yet another season of planting falsehoods. Pretty soon, the old saw about "fooling the people" is not going to be true. If we keep on this path and give Clinton a free ride for perjury, they will be able to fool all of the people all of the time.

End of rant.

Mr. K.



To: jbe who wrote (10494)10/21/1998 2:13:00 PM
From: Volsi Mimir  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 67261
 
That is illuminating contemplation.

Where paranoia is prevalent is in the manipulation of mass media. Wherever on the spectrum ,issues like gun control, abortion , healthcare, education, welfare, seniors&social security are played to frighten instead of enlighten. Bold general statements are effectively directed to emotions and timed and ;just like the ads of big business ;are calculated for effectiveness. The perception of truth is only used to qualify the target. We give ourselves to much credit. We say we think for ourselves than more likely we are trained in the trenches and do not look over. Politics is the beast that thrives on this and creates the endless arguments that seem self perpetuating. Yell for yelling sake!

Paranoia breeds mistrust though. And a definitive polarization. Remember the slogan "its the economy stupid"? I'm so paranoid I feel the rate cut by the honorable Mr. Greenspan is for political as much economic reasons given to timing. Just like the bombing of the chemical plant and guerilla place ,the effort may be warranted but out of the blue, the timing suggests underlying criteria.
My cynicism has overcome reason in that I didn't think Mr. Clinton to have that power immediately and without perceived consultation in the bombings. What else can he do? That was impressive in the fact we have forgotten it. Another end around game. And if it meant so much for the president to bomb perceived targets with no follow up,no discourse,on the day Monica was to be deposed, what is the underlying criteria that created it.
We are not in brown shirts and undercontrol. We do have the wool pulled over our eyes.



To: jbe who wrote (10494)10/21/1998 4:36:00 PM
From: Johannes Pilch  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 67261
 
>Getting back to stereotypes, MrK, I wish you were as sensitive to cases where "your guys" employ them.<

A good point. Nevertheless to my way of thinking the matter is philosophical, particularly where morality is concerned. The liberal position seems to be that there are no moral absolutes and that therefore morality is ultimately developed in a society via consensus. The religious Christian conservative position is that morality and the rights of man are both handed down by God and that they are inalienable. The liberal position allows and often even champions a woman's right to practically give birth to her nearly full term child, puncturing a hole in the base of its skull, and sucking out its brain, discarding the remains into the trash. The religious conservative position no doubt is fraught with problems of interpretation of God's will, and these have allowed grievous ills, the wounds of which are yet experienced by many in our republic. Nevertheless, even these misinterpretations have their limits. I hardly think one will find a religious conservative who will go so far as to suggest there exists no moral ramifications to the infanticide that is abortion, let alone the clear infanticide that is partial birth abortion; and even where interpretations have caused ills, such as the support of slavery, it was from the prodding of religious fanatics themselves that these ills were corrected. Slavery, for example, was eventually abolished because of men like John Brown and others who hurled their lives against the established depravity of American slavery (the roots of which were not based on religion, despite what liberals have attempted to claim) because of an assurance that it contradicted the moral order of God, and these men pointed to reasoned interpretation of the Bible to validate their moral positions. Even the Southern Baptists, whose denomination essentially formed over the issue of slavery, have come to recognize their error, this, as a result of bending to these reasoned interpretations.

While no doubt conservatives employ stereotypes against liberals, I find it of no consequence when the manifestation of mainstream American liberalism itself contradicts the existence of my moral order. It is no fringe element of liberalism that champions infanticide. It is currently American law. It is no fringe element of liberalism that champions the raising of homosexuality to equality with the grand human archetype that is heterosexuality. There are states today that are now considering doing just this. It is no fringe element of liberalism that desires to force Americans whose moral sensibilities require an utter rejection of homosexuality, to support it. This is precisely the thing for which mainstream liberalism strives. It is no fringe element of liberalism that champions making euthanasia American law. The far reaching implications of these things are harrowing, and while Hofstadter and others may think we who recognize them as destructive forces are paranoid, he merely admits by use of his veiled ad hominem that he has no arguments. The things mentioned above are not the products of the stereotypical liberal. They are doctrines of mainstream liberalism, doctrines that threaten my moral legacy.

>The distinguishing thing about the paranoid style is not that its exponents see conspiracies or plots here and there in history, but that they regard a 'vast' or 'gigantic' conspiracy as the motive force in historical events. The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of this conspiracy in apocalyptic terms--he traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization.
- Hofstadter <

In truth, if one desires to apply this lunacy to religious Christian conservatives, one merely betrays a gross ignorance of these people. Speaking as a Christian conservative, I of course believe there is a conspiracy against Decency, Honor, Integrity, and each time I hear of a child being dissolved to death, or being butchered by a so-called doctor, each time I hear of an entire nation winking at presidential adultery and flagrant lying, I realize the evil is so great as to be the concoction of no mere man. I do not posit the apocalyptic destruction of our political and social systems. I claim these systems are already largely destroyed and that, as with the proverbial frog in the pot, we are unwittingly being cooked. We are legislating our system to death so that our Constitution is increasingly but a sham. The societal values that allowed dozens of families to sleep at night without fear of harm on the Mall of Washington, D.C. are largely destroyed. We have already lost basic trust in one another, and too many of us, though we will perhaps not admit it, live in fear and in distrust even of our neighbors. I actually have books from my grandmother's day describing the adventures of six and eight year old girls roaming the streets of New York City, going to museums and zoos, this, without adult supervision, trusting in society's social and moral infrastructure to protect them. They knew that in the event they became lost, they merely needed ask a policeman or adult for assistance. Indeed, even I grew up with a semblance of trust in our basic moral infrastructure. This infrastructure is now destroyed, and what little morality is left is but a remnant from our past, reinforced primarily not by a general demand by society that each of its members adhere to a basic standard of decency, but only by laws, thousands and thousands of laws, any number of which can be circumvented by the clever predator-just as illustrated to us by O.J. and our noble President.

Were I to have a young daughter working in the White House, I would not trust the president (!) to treat her honorably, and I would not trust you or the whole country to demand retribution in the event the president treated her dishonorably. Despite the politics of the thing, the Lewinsky matter has further corrupted the basic trust between members of the American family. I personally distrust, now further, the basic moral infrastructure of our country, and am increasingly sensing the need to prepare myself for the defense of my own family, my own values and beliefs. To preserve my moral heritage, I literally must (and have) train my children to reject the prevalent moral position of their own country and their own President, thereby breeding within them a distrust of the basic moral constitution of their countrymen. There is not the slightest bit of paranoia here. Sober reality requires I acknowledge the trash all around me, and decency requires that I take measures to sweep it away.



To: jbe who wrote (10494)10/21/1998 5:37:00 PM
From: one_less  Respond to of 67261
 
<<And (let's be fair here) what about the counter-vision of hordes of fanatic bible-thumpers from the Religious Right, who, if not checked, will burn all our books and put us all in concentration-camps?>>

Concentration-camps, what happened to stoning pits?