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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Dayuhan who wrote (26029)11/18/1998 11:36:00 PM
From: Sam Ferguson  Respond to of 108807
 
The catholic church turned into a cult and became a tyranny over the people trying to stomp out the true gospel of Jesus Christ, but the gospel prevailed.

Bullshit Steve The Roman Catholics started the Jesus Christianity. They wrote your bible. Let me now give an idea of the method I propose to follow in the study of this subject. Let us suppose that a student living in the year 3000 desired to make sure that such a man as Abraham Lincoln really lived and did the things attributed to him. How
would he go about it?

A man must have a birthplace and a birthday. All the records
agree as to where and when Lincoln was born. This is not enough to
prove his historicity but it is an important link in the chain.
Neither the place nor the time of Jesus' birth is known. There
has never been any unanimity about this matter. There has been
considerable confusion and contradiction about it. It cannot be
proved that the twenty-fifth of December is his birthday. A number
of other dates were observed by the Christian church at various
times as the birthday of Jesus. The Gospels give no date, and
appear to be quite uncertain - really ignorant about it. When it is
remembered that the Gospels purport to have been written by Jesus'
intimate companions, and during the lifetime of his brothers and
mother, their silence on this matter becomes significant. The
selection of the twenty-fifth of December as his birthday is not
only an arbitrary one, but that date, having been from time
immemorial dedicated to the Sun, the inference is that the Son of
God and the Sun of heaven enjoying the same birthday, were at one
time identical beings. The fact that Jesus' death was accompanied
with the darkening of the Sun, and that the date of his
resurrection is also associated with the position of the Sun at the
time of the vernal equinox, is a further intimation that we have in
the story of the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus, an
ancient and nearly universal Sun-myth, instead of verifiable
historical events. The story of Jesus for three days in the heart
of the earth; of Jonah, three days in the belly of a fish; of
Hercules, three days in the belly of a whale, and of Little Red
Riding Hood, sleeping in the belly of a great black wolf, represent
the attempt of primitive man to explain the phenomenon of Day and
Night. The Sun is swallowed by a dragon, a wolf, or a whale, which
plunges the world into darkness; but the dragon is killed, and the
Sun rises triumphant to make another Day. This ancient Sun myth is
the starting point of nearly an miraculous religions, from the days
of Egypt to the twentieth century.
The story which Matthew relates about a remarkable star, which
sailing in the air pointed out to some unnamed magicians the cradle
or cave in which the wonder-child was born, helps further to
identify Jesus with the Sun. What became of this "Performing" star,
or of the magicians, and their costly gifts, the records do not
say. It is more likely that it was the astrological predilections
of the gospel writer which led him to assign to his God-child a
star in the heavens. The belief that the stars determine human
destinies is a very ancient one. Such expressions in our language
as "ill starred," "a lucky star," "disaster," "lunacy," and so on,
indicate the hold which astrology once enjoyed upon the human mind.
We still call a melancholy man, Saturnine; a cheerful man, Jovial;
a quick-tempered man, Mercurial; Showing how closely our ancestors
associated the movements of celestial bodies with human affairs.
[Childhood of the World. -- Edward Clodd.] The prominence,
therefore, of the sun and stars in the Gospel story tends to show
that Jesus is an astrological rather than a historical character.
That the time of his birth, his death, and supposed
resurrection is not verifiable is generally admitted.
This uncertainty robs the story of Jesus, to an extent at
least, of the atmosphere of reality.
The twenty-fifth of December is celebrated as his birthday.
Yet there is no evidence that he was born on that day. Although the
Gospels are silent as to the date on which Jesus was born, there is
circumstantial evidence in the accounts given of the event to show
that the twenty-fifth of December could not have been his birthday.
It snows in Palestine, though a warmer country, and we know that in
December there are no shepherds tending their flocks in the night
time in that country. Often at this time of the year the fields and
hills are covered with snow. Hence, if the shepherds sleeping in
the fields really saw the heavens open and heard the. angel-song,
in all probability it was in some other month of the year, and not
late in December. We know, also, that early in the history of
Christianity the months of May and June enjoyed the honor of
containing the day of Jesus' birth.
Of course, it is immaterial on which day Jesus was born, but
why is it not known? Yet not only is the date of his birth a matter
of conjecture, but also the year in which he was born. Matthew, one
of the Evangelists, suggests that Jesus was born in King Herod's
time, for it was this king who, hearing from the Magi that a King
of the Jews was born, decided to destroy him; but Luke, another
Evangelist, intimates that Jesus was born when Quirinus was ruler
of Judea, which makes the date of Jesus' birth about fourteen years
later than the date given by Matthew. Why this discrepancy in a
historical document, to say nothing about inspiration? The
theologian might say that this little difficulty was introduced
purposely into the scriptures to establish its infallibility, but
it is only religious books that are pronounced infallible on the
strength of the contradictions they contain.
Again, Matthew says that to escape the evil designs of Herod,
Mary and Joseph, with the infant Jesus, fled into Egypt, Luke says
nothing about this hurried flight, nor of Herod's intention to kill
the infant Messiah. On the contrary he tells us that after the
forty days of purification were over Jesus was publicly presented
at the temple, where Herod, if he really, as Matthew relates,
wished to seize him, could have done so without difficulty. It is
impossible to reconcile the flight to Egypt with the presentation
in the temple, and this inconsistency is certainly insurmountable
and makes it look as if the narrative had no value whatever as
history.
When we come to the more important chapters about Jesus, we
meet with greater difficulties. Have you ever noticed that the day
on which Jesus is supposed to have died falls invariably on a
Friday? What is the reason for this? It is evident that nobody
knows, and nobody ever knew the date on which the Crucifixion took
place, if it ever took place. It is so obscure and so mythical that
an artificial day has been fixed by the Ecclesiastical councils.
While it is always on a Friday that the Crucifixion is
commemorated, the week in which the day occurs varies from year to
year. "Good Friday" falls not before the spring equinox, but as
soon after the spring equinox as the full moon allows, thus making
the calculation to depend upon the position of the sun in the
Zodiac and the phases of the moon. But that was precisely the way
the day for the festival of the pagan goddess Oestera was
determined. The Pagan Oestera has become the Christian Easter. Does
not this fact, as well as those already touched upon, make the
story of Jesus to read very much like the stories of the Pagan
deities.
The early Christians, Origin, for instance, in his reply to
the rationalist Celsus who questioned the reality of Jesus, instead
of producing evidence of a historical nature, appealed to the
mythology of the pagans to prove that the story of Jesus was no
more incredible than those of the Greek and Roman gods. This is so
important that we refer our readers to Origin's own words on the
subject. "Before replying to Celsus, it is necessary to admit that
in the matter of history, however true it might be," writes this
Christian Father, "it is often very difficult and sometimes quite
impossible to establish its truth by evidence which shall be
considered sufficient" [Origin Contre Celsus. 1. 58 et Suiv.] This
is a plain admission that, as early as the second and third
centuries the claims put forth about Jesus did not admit of
positive historical demonstration. But in the absence of evidence
Origin offers the following metaphysical arguments against the
skeptical Celsus: 1. Such stories as are told of Jesus are admitted
to be true when told of pagan divinities, why can they not also be
true when told of the Christian Messiah? 2. They must be true
because they are the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies
[Ibid.] In other words, the only proofs Origin can bring forth
against the rationalistic criticism of Celsus is, that to deny
Jesus would be equivalent to denying both the Pagan and Jewish
mythologies. If Jesus is not real, says Origin, then Apollo was not
real, and the Old Testament prophecies have not been fulfilled. If
we are to have any mythology at all, he seems to argue, why object
to adding to it the myths of Jesus? There could not be a more
damaging admission than this from one of the most conspicuous
defenders of Jesus' story against early criticism.
Justin Martyr, another early Father, offers the following
argument against unbelievers in the Christian legend: "When we say
also that the Word, which is the first birth of God, was produced
without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was
crucified, died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we
propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those
whom you esteem sons of Jupiter." [First Apology, Chapter xxi (Anti-Niacin Library.] Which is another way of saying that the Christian myths is very similar to the pagan, and should therefore be equally true. Pressing his argument further, this interesting Father discovers many resemblances between what he himself is preaching and the pagans have always believed: "For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribe to Jupiter. Mercury, the interpreting word (he spells this word with small w, while in the above quotation he uses w to denote the Christian incarnation) and teacher of all; Aesculapius ... to heaven; one Hercules ... and Perseus; ... and Bellerophon, who, from mortals, rose to heaven on the horses of Pegasus." [Ibid.] If Jupiter can have, Justin Martyr seems to reason, half a dozen divine sons, why cannot Jehovah have at least one?
Instead of producing historical evidence or appealing to
creditable documents, as one would to prove the existence of a
Caesar or an Alexander, Justin Martyr draws upon pagan mythology in
his reply to the critics of Christianity. All he seems to ask for
is that Jesus be given a higher place among the divinities of the
ancient world.
To help their cause the Christian apologists not infrequently
also changed the sense of certain Old Testament passages to make
them support the miraculous stories in the New Testament. For
example, having borrowed from Oriental books the story of the god
in a manger, surrounded by staring animals, the Christian fathers
introduced a prediction of this event into the following text from
the book of Habakkuk in the Bible: "Accomplish thy work in the
midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known, etc."
[Heb. iii. 2.] This Old Testament text appeared in the Greek
translation as follows: "Thou shalt manifest thyself in the midst
of two animals," which was fulfilled of course when Jesus was born
in a stable. How weak must be one's case to resort to such tactics
in order to command a following! And when it is remembered that
these follies were deemed necessary to prove the reality of what
has been claimed as the most stupendous event in all history, one
can readily see upon how fragile a foundation is built the story of
the Christian God-man.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (26029)11/19/1998 10:14:00 AM
From: Sidney Reilly  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
Steve,

<<If we respect freedom of religion, shouldn't we also respect freedom from religion for those who desire it? >>

Like I said before to have freedom we are going to have to listen to some things we don't like. I don't know how you can signal everyone who might offend you about religion in advance not to talk to you except maybe to wear a sign. <gg>

<<When Christianity was at the stage that Islam is at now, it was considered right, just, and eminently desirable to burn unbelievers, heretics, witches, and anybody else the local religious authorities happened to dislike.>>

Of course there has been a lot of evil done in God's name. But it was done by men, not God. You cannot blame God for it. Jesus was very clear about how he expected His followers to treat others. He also said that those who did not do His will were not His disciples. It's very clear to me that the evil done in God's name was not God's will and the people doing it were not Jesus's disciples. They were only deluding themselves.

<<From this I conclude that you do not believe that Catholics represent true Christianity. Catholics would surely disagree. Which of the current multiplicity of "Christian" sects would you say DOES represent true Christianity? Episcopalians? Seventh-Day Adventists? Baptists? The lunatics at www.godhatesfags.com? All would claim that they are Christians, and that the others are not. How do we debate the merits of Christianity if even Christians can't agree on what a Christian is?>>

It remains to be seen who is a true disciple of Jesus and who is deluding themselves. There are as many religions as there are opinions. Only those who do God's will as He said in His Word are truly His disciples. It will all come out in the wash.

<<Are you saying that God has made us wealthy as a reward for our adherence to Christian principles? How then do we explain Brunei, or Saudi Arabia?>>

I was looking at the whole picture, not just money. Freedom of speech is a concept that was written into our constitution by christians. Freedom of speech and religion go hand in hand. The freedom of speech represents the freedom of thought which cannot be seen. Freedom of religion is freedom of thought and speech. The christians who wrote that into our constitution did so because they knew the evil of state religion and governments restricting freedom, even of thought.

Bob