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Politics : Bill Clinton Scandal - SANITY CHECK -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: jbe who wrote (15481)	11/21/1998 3:01:00 PM
From: Daniel Schuh	Respond to of 67261

Joan, fuel cells are cool and everything, I just don't know how close to cost effective production they are. Hydrogen is of course the perfect fuel, and people have known that for a long time, except . . . storage and transport is, um, problematic, and even in cryogenic liquid form it doesn't have the energy density of hydrocarbon fuels. "The hydrogen economy" has been bandied about for a while, but that would involve a whole new infrastructure, as great or greater than today's fossil fuel infrastructure. It's got to include the power source to generate the hydrogen. Not a near term thing, in any way I can see. Hydrocarbon fuel cells may be more practical near term, at least for mobile usage. Maybe you can generate hydrogen from hydrocarbons catalytically for mobile use, I think that's how large scale production is done currently. My understanding is that electrolysis has some efficiency problems. Too bad cold fusion didn't work out <vbg>. Cheers, Dan.

To: jbe who wrote (15481)	11/21/1998 9:01:00 PM
From: Jacques Chitte	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 67261

>Now, to Lather's point, about "artifical subsidies". By that, Lather, do you mean the Clinton Administration's program, designed to stimulate basic research, and called the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV)? If not, what do you have in mind? What about the European and Japanese car companies, which have been in the forefront of FCV research? Has their research been subsidized,"artificially" or otherwise? < The PNGV and its predecessors come to mind, yes. As for Europe and Japan - I have no information, so I'll concede ignorance here. But I'll withhold my judgment until I see a technology demonstration vehicle in the minivan or delivery van weight class. I am fascinated by points 7 and 9 in the above paean to hydrogen cars. Hydrogen's energy density is lousy. While hydrogen is head, shoulders and groin above any other fuel in energy per weight (either by direct combustion or electrochemically) there is no way to get more than a small weight amount into a decent-sized storage vessel. (At the very high pressure of 3000 psi, a ten-gallon tank will hold less than a pound of H Two gas. Liquid hydrogen is too difficult to handle except for specialty apps like large rockets.) So - what kind of "incredible mile ranges" are we discussing? For a real car, not a one-man teardrop. If I can impose upon you, please provide a link or a citation describing particulars - this one is counterintuitive to me, and if I'm wrong "I gots ta know". Point 9 about safety and ease of handling is - well, controversial. Hydrogen has some unique hazards - I mentioned them earlier. I DO think it has its place - low pressure gas lines to cities and homes would be a clean, comfy way to make heat and power. Bit of an infrastructure investment, of course.