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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (22463)	11/23/1998 6:39:00 PM
From: Chris land	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

<<<The statues of Mary and Joseph to right and left of the Church disturbed me until the reality that Jesus was indeed born to a human family and these statues were mere reminders. >>> I think that is a cop out. Those Idols are there because the church has been blinded. You won't find those idols only in the Catholic Church either. You will find them in the people's homes and in times of need you will find them clutching to them as if they hold the answer. The Catholic church portrays Christ upon a cross with a head bent down in defeat, but the scriptures show a Christ who, with his head towards heaven cried with a loud voice, "Father into thy hands I commit my spirit!" Even the Roman centurion was impressed! I don't believe that all catholics are lost so please don't jump to conclusions. I've admired some of the best Christian writers who have had had their upbringings in the Catholic church (Fenelon, Guyon). On the other hand it is was the Catholic Church which started the inquisitions and murdered so many Christians who would not bow the knee to a devilish Pope. Chris

To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (22463)	11/23/1998 7:20:00 PM
From: John S.	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Emile, "Have you ever been to a Catholic service and studied their words and Liturgical books?" Yes. My mother was raised Catholic my Dad is Orthodox. My mother came to Christ as her Saviour a few years before her death. She had always been taught that Mary interceded on her behalf for sin and that Christ was received in the act of communion believing in transubstantiation not in a personal commitment to Him. She was taught to pray to Mary not God the Father. She had never seen the verses that show that the knowledge of salvation is for here and now and that only Jesus could save her, until the day she was saved. In the Orthodox faith which I had been raised in, I asked why did Christ die for us? No one told me directly. I was told to trust in tradition, don't read the bible, the priests will explain it to you. Best of all, I was told if you read the bible, it will make you crazy. Do you see where I am coming from Emile? My dad also knows Christ as his saviour. Buried within all the traditions and inclusive of Mary worship was a salvation message of Christ. Again I don't deny that there are Christians in these churches but I can't put a blanket coverage upon the churches teachings as a whole labeling it as Christian. The majority of Catholics I have talked to believe that Mary is the one to turn to, the statement I've heard often, is "Why wouldn't I pray to her she is Jesus's mother?" When I see people bowing and kissing statues and icons all I can see is idolatry not symbolism. When people pray to saints I can only see heresy that they are taught and are trusting in and I pity them I don't hate them. The prayer you posted cannot be offensive Emile. But what about vain repetition? Repeating a prayer as a tradition is not believing in the heart. In the Orthodox faith I may well have repeated the same in the Liturgy in my youth following the crowd and I know I never once meant it. It was even in a different language. When I see people trusting in priests and traditions I never ever feel hatred for them, only grief if they are missing the simplicity of Christ and salvation. When I first read the verses concerning salvation and understood them and was saved I later became very angry. I had been searching as a youth and not getting any answers in my families faith even when I asked those who should have known, namely the priest and the Sunday school teachers. I was even an altar boy participating in the services. I stopped attending church when I was 16 or 17 years old. I hope this puts a better perspective on my sentiments Emile. When witnessing to Catholics the only message I present is a very simple salvation message. I have heard the counter productive version. I have attended some services recently, mainly funerals and a few weddings. I found much disturbing in the services. I also heard Jesus mentioned. John