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To: Chris land who wrote (23277)12/10/1998 10:26:00 PM
From: DLL  Respond to of 39621
 
Chris;

Your attitude of late betrays you as less than and expert on the love of God. I do find it interesting that the verses you quote speak of Israel as "His own". The word of God calls them His first born. (Ex 4:22)

Zechariah 2:8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye.

DLL



To: Chris land who wrote (23277)12/10/1998 10:44:00 PM
From: Alan Markoff  Respond to of 39621
 
Chris;

Did the one hanging on the Cross next to Jesus say Lord forgive my sins........ Or did he simply say Lord remember me.......... and what did Jesus reply???? 43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

HE KNOWS OUR HEARTS and I know of many who proudly claim the Christian way along with the Saints it means NOTHING NADA........ To the Lord. Confessing sin is not VERBAL its called a conscious its called faith with regards to a loving heart. When you are right with God you know when you have sinned. Accepting Jesus is accepting his love for people and what he stood for, it's not MERELY saying Lord come into my heart. Anyone can say the words including HATE GROUPS and they do it everyday.........

Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45: Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46: My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47: Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48: And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49: And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50: And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

The women showed LOVE he saw her HEART he is our Judge NOT YOU OR YOUR BUDDY EMILIO...........

He came to his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1

YES it is easy to see your HEART with the above and what you are trying to imply.............

Alan



To: Chris land who wrote (23277)12/10/1998 10:50:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
The Judaization of Christianity...

"I am devoting my lecture in this seminar to a discussion of the possibility that we are now entering a
Jewish century, a time when the spirit of the community, the nonideological blend of the emotional and
rational and the resistance to categories and forms will emerge through the forces of antinationalism to
provide us with a new kind of society. I call this process the Judaization of Christianity because
Christianity will be the vehicle through which this society becomes Jewish." (Rabbi Martin Siegel, New
York Magazine, p. 32, January 18, 1972)

In the love of Christ

Emile



To: Chris land who wrote (23277)12/11/1998 12:58:00 AM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 39621
 
The Hope of
Israel



HOW ARE THE O.T. PROPHECIES OF BLESSING TO ISRAEL
TO BE INTERPRETED?

The main purpose of the presentation is to bring clearly to view the important truth that in
Scripture the contrast is not between the spiritual and the literal, but between the spiritual and
natural; for a passage of Scripture may refer, when taken "literally," either to "that which is
natural" or to "that which is spiritual." In other words, the literal interpretation may call for a thing
which exists in the realm of nature, or for the counterpart of that thing which exists in the realm of
spiritual realities (1 Cor. 15:46). It is of the utmost importance that this be understood; for the
advocates of modern dispensationalism have wrought confusion, and have succeeded in giving
plausibility to many misinterpretations of Scripture, by first taking for granted (erroneously, as will
be herein shown) that a "literal" interpretation necessarily calls for something material or natural,
and by then insisting strenuously that all prophecies which refer to Israel, Jerusalem, Zion, etc.,
should be interpreted "literally." It will not be difficult to show that this is a thoroughly unsound
principle of interpretation, that it is based upon a false premise, and that its application has made
havoc of many prophecies.

For example, those expositors who think the Bible teaches us to expect hereafter a millennium
of earthly bliss, a golden age of world-wide peace and plenty, during which the Jewish nation will
be reconstituted and will have the place of headship over a world occupied by God-fearing and
peace-loving Gentiles, base that expectation upon certain Old Testament prophecies which, they
think, are to be fulfilled "literally"; and since they cannot possibly be fulfilled in that manner during
this era of the Gospel, there must needs be an age to come of an entirely different character from
this day of gospel salvation.

This argument, however, is utterly fallacious, because [it is] based upon a false premise. Those
who make use of it take for granted that in order to interpret a prophecy "literally" its fulfillment
must be located in the realm of nature, and not in the spiritual [eternal] realm. Thus they assume
that the "literal" interpretation is in contrast with the "spiritual" interpretation thereof; and they
denounce and repudiate what they refer to disparagingly as "the spiritualizing" of the prophecies.

Undoubtedly our natural bias is in favor of the so-called "literal" interpretation of the prophecies
in question; for to the natural man the things that are seen are the real things; and to that view we
are disposed to cling tenaciously, notwithstanding the plain teaching of the New Testament that the
seen things are but the fleeting shadows of things unseen, the latter being the spiritual and eternal
realities with which the promises of future blessing have mainly to do. For the New Testament
Scriptures state, in most unambiguous language, that "the seed of Abraham," to whom "all the
promises of God" belong, are those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:7, 29; 2 Cor.
1:20). Further, in the New Testament it is plainly revealed that, even as "Abraham had two sons"
(which might make it uncertain whether the descendants of Ishmael or those of Isaac were to
inherit the promises) so likewise there is a natural "Israel," "Zion" and "Jerusalem" and also a
spiritual counterpart of each; and that just as Ishmael preceded in time the true heir (though
eventually he was to be "cast out" and not to be "heir with the son of the free woman") even so the
natural Israel, Zion, and Jerusalem preceded the respective spiritual realities to which those
names properly belong. For God's invariable order of procedure, in the working out of His eternal
purposes, is "first - that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:46).

If, therefore, an O.T. prophecy of blessing, intended for the true Israel (that "holy nation" of 1
Pet. 2:9), be interpreted as applying to "Israel after the flesh," the interpretation is not "literal" (i.e.,
according to the letter) except in the sense in which "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2
Cor. 3:6); for obviously in this case the "literal" interpretation destroys the prophecy completely.
And it is specially to be noted that, in the passage from which this Scripture is quoted, Paul is
explaining the great differences between the Old Covenant (which was of the letter) and the New
Covenant (of the Spirit); and, moreover, he is comparing the ministry of Moses, which had to do
with things that are seen (an earthly sanctuary and its vessels of service, animal sacrifices, etc.),
with the ministry of himself and others whom God had made "able ministers of the New Covenant;
not of the letter, but of the spirit." Also it should be noted that the apostle there speaks of the Old
Covenant (under which promises were made to the natural Israel) as "that which is done away";
whereas the New Covenant is "that which remaineth," that is, abideth eternally (v. 11).

From this Scripture alone it is evident (and the same truth is set forth at greater length in Gal.
4:21-31 and Hebrews Chapters VIII-X) that all future promises of glory and blessing for Israel and
Zion must belong to the true Israel and the heavenly Zion. And, in this very passage, we are
admonished to "look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen" (4:18);
which admonition, however, is habitually disregarded in the interpretation of prophecies relating to
these very subjects.

We ask the reader specially to note that in the above quoted passage, the apostle speaks of the
old covenant as "that which is done away" (v. 11), "that which is abolished" (v. 13). This shows
that the old covenant, under which the earthly nation of Israel had been constituted, was already, in
Paul's day, a thing of the past.

Evidently then our difficulty in understanding prophecies of the class referred to above is due to
our lack of faith and our spiritual dullness. For, in respect to the things which are not seen, faith
takes the place of sight; for faith has to so solely with things not visible to the natural eye; and
hope likewise, for "hope that is seen is not hope" (Rom. 8:24). Wherefore it is written that, "faith is
the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"; and "through faith we
understand" (Heb. 11:1,3).

Hence, to understand the prophecies it is necessary, and vitally necessary, that we believe the
revelations of the New Testament; that we accept as "literally" true that there is now, at this
present time, a realm of spiritual realities, into which our risen Lord is actually entered, and we
in Him; that "the substance of things hoped for" is there, not here; and specially that God's
purposes concerning His City, Temple and People are being fulfilled at this very time, in that
spiritual realm, though the natural eye cannot see what is going on there.

The writer of these lines can testify from experience that, by the simple process of believing
what is written in the New Testament concerning the actual present existence, among the things
not seen, of the true Zion, of the city of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem, of the holy nation
which is a royal priesthood, and of other spiritual realities, the main difficulty in the understanding
of the Old Testament prophecies which speak of a glorified state of the things named above,
vanishes away.

AN ILLUSTRATION FROM ZECHARIAH

Zechariah is one of the books that is frequently referred to as containing prophecies which
await a "literal" fulfillment in a future dispensation.

Zechariah, with Haggai, prophesied during the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple, after the
return from Babylon of some of the deported Israelites; at which time "the elders of the Jews
builded and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son
of Iddo" (Ezra 6:14). But, as all are agreed, the prophet looks beyond what those men were
building, to a temple and a city that were to be far more glorious. He records the word of the Lord
concerning Zion: "For, lo I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many
nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day and shall be My people; and I will dwell in the midst
of thee" (2:10,11). And the prophet goes on to speak of a priest, Joshua, who was clothed at first
with filthy garments, but to whom it was said, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from
thee, and I will clothe the with change of raiment" (3:3,4). This Joshua and his fellows were to be
"men wondered at; for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch. For behold the stone that I
have laid before Joshua" (vv. 8,9).

There is no difficulty in recognizing in this passage a prophecy of the coming of Christ as the
Branch of Jehovah and as the Foundation Stone of the true Temple of God; for Peter (quoting a
similar prophecy by Isaiah) writes to those who have been "redeemed... by the precious blood of
Christ," saying:

"Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture, Behold I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect,
precious"; and he had just said in the preceding verse, "Ye also, as living stones are [being] built up,
a spiritual house, an holy priesthood" - as typified by Joshua's change of garments - "to offer up
spiritual sacrifices" (1 Pet. 2:5,6). Thus by Peter's application of the prophecy we are given plainly
to understand that it relates to "spiritual" things, and that it is now being fulfilled in the spiritual
realm.

It will greatly help us in our efforts to understand the class of prophecies above referred to, if
we give due heed to the facts stated in the above quotation from Peter (and stated also in Hebrews
12:22-24, and in the Epistle to the Ephesians as pointed out below) that God's "spiritual house" is
in course of erection now, that it is being built "in Sion", and that the believers in Jesus Christ are
"living stones" therein, and are also a "royal priesthood."

Zechariah refers again (6:12-15) to "the Man whose name is The BRANCH," and who "shall
build the temple of the Lord"; and says of Him that "He shall bear the glory, and He shall sit and
rule upon His throne; and He shall be a priest upon His throne." None will dispute, in the light of
New Testament Scriptures, that this prophecy is being fulfilled now (Heb. 2:9; 8:1, etc.). And the
prophet goes on to say that crowns shall be given also to certain men, whom he names, and that
"they that are far off" (a scriptural designation of Gentiles, see Acts 2:39 and Eph 2:13), "shall
come and build in the temple of the Lord."

Furthermore, in Zechariah 9:9 we have the familiar passage: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of
Zion... behold, thy King cometh unto thee"; and we know to a certainty, from Luke 19:38, that that
prophecy was fulfilled when Christ came to Jerusalem to die for our salvation.

In Zechariah 13:7-9 the atoning death of Christ is foretold in the words, "Awake, O sword,
against My Shepherd, and against the Man that is My Fellow, saith the Lord of hosts. Smite the
Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered" (See Matt. 26:31). And what was to follow as regards
the Jewish people is foretold in these words: "And it shall come to pass that in all the land, saith the
Lord, two parts shall be cut off, and die; but the third part shall be left therein." And in agreement
with this, the two great parties, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, were "cut off"; but a third part,
the disciples of Christ, were left. And as to these, the prophecy goes on to say: "And I will bring
the third part through the fire and will refine them as silver is refined" (See 1 Pet. 1:6 and 4:12);
"they shall call on My Name and I will hear them. I will say, It is My people; and they shall say,
The Lord is My God" (See Rom. 11:1,2).

Moreover, the apostle Paul declares the same truth concerning the building of God's true temple
now as declared by Peter. He makes known that those who believe in Jesus Christ are even now
"quickened together with Christ, - and raised up together, and made to sit together [i.e. on
thrones] in heavenly places [Zion] in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5,6); which plainly declares that we live
and reign with Christ even now. This indeed is not perceived with the natural eye or realized in our
conscious experience. Nevertheless it is true, and this truth is developed in Chapter XX of this
volume.

And furthermore, in the immediate context, Paul also declares the companion truth revealed by
Peter, namely that the saints of this era, Gentiles as well as Jews, and being "built upon the
foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone; in
whom all the building, fitly framed together, groweth into an holy temple in the Lord" (vv. 20, 21).

The expression "in that day" occurs about twenty times in the book of Zechariah; and, as a
judicious commentator says, "It is a synonym for the great Messianic hope." The first of these
occurrences we have quoted, "And many nations shall be joined unto the Lord in that day" (2:11).
What was "that day", then, is this day now, for "now is the day of salvation"; and "all the prophets
from Samuel... as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days" (Acts 3:24). And so,
when Zechariah says (13:1) "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David
and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleaness," we understand clearly that he is
foretelling the cross of Christ; as very plainly appears from verse 7, "Awake, O sword, against My
Shepherd, and against the Man that is My Fellow, saith the Lord of hosts; smite the Shepherd, and
the sheep shall be scattered." Further reference to the prophecies of Zechariah will be found in
Chapter X, The New Covenant.

Enough has been said, however, to make evident that the prophecies of Zechariah referred to
above, and hence other prophecies of like character as well, relate to things spiritual and have their
fulfillment in this present era of grace.

But it will be profitable to follow a little further the subject of the building of God's true temple.
So we recall that, at our Lord's first visit to Jerusalem, when He had driven the traffickers out of
the temple which Herod had built and which was one of the wonders of the world; and when the
onlookers demanded of Him what sign He could give in proof of his authority to do those things,
He answered and said unto them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up"
(John 2:19). The Jews understood this "literally"; that is to say, they took it as applying to that
building of material stones which stood on Mt. Moriah; and had the record stopped there, it would
doubtless be insisted by some in our day that that great edifice, which has been meanwhile
destroyed so completely that not one stone remains upon another, is to be miraculously restored in
the coming millennium. But, to the end that we should not be misled and also that we might have a
key to the interpretation of prophetic utterances of this sort, the Spirit caused John to insert the
explanatory note: "But He spake of the Temple of His Body."

This is just one of the many, seemingly casual, indications scattered throughout the Scriptures,
that God's promises are to be fulfilled and His purposes are to be accomplished in the
resurrection; that is to say, in the new creation.

Again, at a subsequent visit to Jerusalem, at the season of one of the feasts, "In the last day,
that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying, If any man thirst, let him come to Me and
drink, he that believeth on Me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living
water" (John 7:37,38). We might well wonder what would have been made of this saying by those
who insist upon "literal" interpretations, had it been left unexplained; and therefore we should be
thankful indeed for the added words, "But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on
Him should receive; for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet
glorified." Those words put beyond all uncertainty the meaning of the phrase ""living water," as
used, for example, in Zechariah 14:8, "And it shall be in that day that living waters shall go out
from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former (or eastern, marg.) sea [the Caspian], and half of
them towards the hinder sea" [the Mediterranean] - in other words, both eastward and westward -
"in summer and in winter it shall be" - that is, all the year round.

In the light of John's explanation, we understand, therefore, that out Lord was foretelling, not
some extraordinary physical phenomenon, which was to happen in a far off millennial age, but the
then approaching era of the Holy Spirit, when there was to be an outflow of the gospel, "with the
Holy Ghost sent down from heaven" (1 Pet. 1:12), both eastward and westward from Jerusalem.
Thus both the place whence (Jerusalem) and the time when ("in that day") those living waters
were to begin to flow out into all the world, both summer and winter, are plainly foretold in
Zechariah's prophecy. Further explanations of the prophecies concerning the outflow of living
waters from the Temple at Jerusalem will be found below (Chapter XIII) in connection with a
discussion of Ezekiel's temple and of the question, Where did the Spirit descend at Pentecost?

And again let it be noted that these explanations put us in possession of the general principle
upon which all prophecies of the same sort should be interpreted. They harmonize fully with all
other indications contained in the Scriptures; making it abundantly plain that all the prophecies of
future glory and blessing for Israel, Zion, and Jerusalem, pertain to that "holy nation" (1 Peter 1:9)
"the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16), and to that heavenly "Mount Sion," and to "the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem," to which we already "are come" (Heb 12:22.).

Therefore, for the above, and for other reasons set forth elsewhere in this volume, the writer
reaches the conclusion that we are to look for the fulfillment of the prophecies in question - not to
another age than this, but - to another locality; namely, to that spiritual realm, which Paul
designates "the heavenlies"; where our Lord is gone to prepare a place for us, where the true
temple is now in course of erection, and where already exists "the Jerusalem which is above,
which is the mother of us all" (Gal. 4:26).

The idea of a future "dispensation" for the fulfillment of prophecies on the earth, abounds in
difficulties, and moreover it contradicts many passages of Scripture; whereas the idea of another
locality, a spiritual and heavenly realm where those prophecies are in course of fulfillment now, is
free from all difficulty, and has, moreover, the support of many N.T. Scriptures.

Concerning the now-existing realm of unseen things enough is said in the Scriptures to make
known that it is a region of great activity; that the "principalities and powers" therein are numerous
and mighty - angels and demons, good spirits and evil - and hence we must infer that there are
happenings there which are of immense importance and significance. For example, we read:
"There was a war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon
fought and his angels" (Rev. 12:7). Also, that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual
wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12).

In this connection it were well to recall that the title of the last book of the Bible, "The
Apocalypse," means the unveiling; that is to say, the taking away of the vail that normally
separates the realm of spiritual things from that of natural things. That the title indicates that the
visions described in the book of "Revelation" bring into view things and happenings in the spiritual
realm, whereof, except for this unveiling, we should be wholly unaware. And when we come to
Chapter XX, where is found the only reference in the Bible to the millennium - "the thousand
years" - the language of the inspired writer makes it evident that the happenings of the millennium
are part of the history of the spirit realm.



To: Chris land who wrote (23277)12/11/1998 8:09:00 AM
From: Alan Markoff  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Chris,
There are verses to support both positions it is all up to what is in your heart. Just as it says there is no more male nor female no Jew nor Greek obviously we still have male and female so we still have Jew and Greek and I think it should pierce your heart into to being gentle to them for what they do not have for your sake. The Lord used grace with truth and his anger was at the religious leaders of the day as IMO it is today at people like Emile that claim to know Him but misrepresent him.

<<God does not look down from heaven and say, that those are his Jewish believers versus those over there who are his Gentile believers. Only the dictates of man in his pride would suggest this sort of distinction exists in the eyes of God.>>

21: Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22: And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23: But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25: Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26: But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27: And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28: Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Do you see the sweet humility in her that the Lord honored? DId she point out the faults of the Pharisees etc..? Here are 2 other accounts when Jesus pointed out that the people were the son or daughter of Abraham, this is not to be spiritualised unless you want to spiritualise the previous account of dogs.

29: And Jesus departed from thence, and came nigh unto the sea of Galilee; and went up into a mountain, and sat down there.
8: And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9: And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

15: The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
16: And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

There is so much need to accuse the Jews of killing the Lord and in these verses the Lord himself says that the Gentiles will kill him.

33: Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:
34: And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Maybe you should read again Romans 11 about your grafting and let your heart be circumcised. Do you think the Lord knew what the Jews were going to reject him when He came? Can you not see that is part of the plan for your sake?

25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I think you must not understand what I am saying for you could not be so concerned if you did. All I am saying is to just pray for and love the Jews and not spend your time looking for their faults but more on your own plank.
Nancy