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Technology Stocks : Oracle Corporation (ORCL) -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: joe who wrote (9100)12/11/1998 3:56:00 PM
From: Eric  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 19080
 
>I'm not sure this makes any sense. You mean Oracle software
>doesn't connect to clients/servers for data?

What Ray Lane meant is Oracle is 100% internet compatible. You
can still use Oracle in the traditional client/server or legacy
sense, but if want you can also use this via internet.

>>Oracle's applications software accesses the database using a Java compatible browser.<<

IE and Netscape browser are both Java compatible broswers. That
should cover most of the broswer market. So it isn't so risk for
Oracle to bank its application software like Designer/2000,
Developer/2000, etc. on those two browsers. As far as accessing
the Oracle DB is concerning, you won't need a JAVA enabled browser,
any broswer will do w/ a database gateway API.

>So, the Oracle Developer tools are JAVA based also? And this
>software creates client/server software (so it's not dead, just
>that Oracle doesn't wants to create client/server software
>directly, but only through another program that creates
>client/software programs?)

Use Developer/2000 as an example, you can create the traditional
client/server application just like you have been for years. But
now in addition, after you've created your c/s apps you can say
'generate JAVA code', that will create the same apps in java code.

>>As he put it to the New York Oracle Users Group this past Wednesday, >>it was never about $500 NC hardware, it was always about NCA >>(Network Computing Architecture)<<

NCA is the wave of future, but it may be called Internet Computing
Architecture (ICA). I believe that Oracle should've put more PR
behind NCA. Promotion of NC is not always about NCA, it is more
about Larry's ego to be Bill-like. NCA doesn't need NC to succeed,
any device with a web broswer can fit into NCA. The future of
technology is about network speed and server. Client software as
we know now will be dead in the future.



To: joe who wrote (9100)12/11/1998 4:05:00 PM
From: Hardly B. Solipsist  Respond to of 19080
 
>>He (Ray Lane) means that client/server is dead, and that all of
>>Oracle's products are set to enable and support internet
>>computing.,

>I'm not sure this makes any sense. You mean Oracle software
>doesn't connect to clients/servers for data?

No, everything that was there before is still there. It's just
that there is new stuff now.

>>Oracle's applications software accesses the database using a
>>Java compatible browser.

>So, anotherwords, JAVA programs (internal to a browser) are
>accessing data on data servers? Same difference seems to me. One
>can say that, they're just recoding a database app, that has had
>the client/server functions cut out of it, with JAVA programming
>language.

If you want, but that's not the basic model. I'll spell this out
below.

>Are all new (skip existing) Oracle products going to made for a
>JAVA environment? Doesn't anybody have a problem with this being
>that JAVA is not an established software standard, and has a
>reputation of being deathly slow? Another words, is Oracle
>basing it's future on the success of JAVA???

It has the reputation for being slow, but it actually isn't that
slow. So it's true that Oracle is betting heavily (although not
exclusively) on Java, but it's also true that this bet will
win. Oracle is betting on ORACLE'S Java, by the way, not anyone
else's.

>>Their Oracle Developer tools and servers can still generate
>>client/server apps but that same application runs on an
>>application server,

>>Their Oracle Designer CASE software generates web enabled Developer apps
>>or HTML code.

>Can it generate C++ code? Would this be similar to a visual C++,
>but probably having a library of modules/objects specific to
>database functions?

There are tools that can, but explain why you'd want to? To get a
20% speed up? Are your machines so slow that you're willing to
risk crashing your entire app-server just to speed things up by
that amount?

>>As he put it to the New York Oracle Users Group this past Wednesday, it
>>was never about $500 NC hardware, it was always about NCA (Network
>>Computing Architecture)

>Yes, how convenient that he reorganizes his thoughts and
>terminology to fit a more specific philosophy/architecture
>now. Why didn't he do this before? Probably because he didn't
>have the concept down that well and was thinking somewhat along
>hardware lines to begin with. If this isn't the case, then
>Mr. PR man himself did a horrible job at managing the PR for the
>NC itself.

There is some truth to this, I think. I don't doubt that Ellison
had this sort of goal in mind from the beginning, and that NC and
various other Oracle initiatives were just failed attempts to
realize the vision, but who gets everything right the first time?
Ellison said that he'd like to claim the 8i product was the
result of planning, but that the engineers had it basically
finished before he ever heard about it. Personally, I don't think
that's so bad, since it means that Oracle has more than one smart
person in it...

>I'm still trying to find a reason tha Oracle is a new breed of
>company for the future. One that hopefully is not dependent on
>only database products written in JAVA. If Ellison is trying to
>change the world into his view (JAVA), then I think I'd rather
>wait a bit and see how future products are accepted.

Here's the model. You have a database with all your data in it,
and you want to expose it, via an application, to the world. In
the past you did DB->terminals (e.g., Sabre, airline
reservations) and then client/server with a fairly fat
client. Now we have the internet and HTML (and XML coming), and
everyone has a general-purpose (fat) client on their machine
called a browser. The database app is written in whatever you want
(SQL, Java, PL/SQL, C/C++ if you insist) and exposes the data by
generating HTML code. The Oracle 8i database has a web-server in
it (the initial release of 8i will apparently have only prototype
of this -- the full-scale version comes soon afterward), and your
browser talks to the database via the internet. There need not be
any application code running in your browser, and usually
won't. In "real life" for huge sites the database will be part of
a bunch of web servers, and for files you will probably just use
something like Apache while dynamic content will come from 8i.

This "Java is slow" concern is mostly a non-issue. The problem
isn't the speed of the language, it's that most Java applications
are brand new and not well written. GNU Emacs is almost entirely
written in elisp, which is at least 20 times slower than C, and
the Emacs editor is a lot faster than MS Word for the stuff I do.
I personally think that the Java AWT libraries are lousy and part
of the reason that Java is thought slow (people tried to write
applets using it and they crawl), but if you wrote the AWT in C
the way it was written in Java the performance would still
stink...



To: joe who wrote (9100)12/11/1998 4:12:00 PM
From: Michael Olin  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 19080
 
Disclaimer - The following is my version of a Intro to Oracle and Computer Science lecture. If you are clear on the distinctions between Two-Tier Client/Server and Three-Tier Architectures and where Oracle's product line fits in, skip this message

Re: Client/Server

It all depends on your definition of client/server computing. This term has generally been understood to mean a two-tier architecture. That is, the application software executes on the client (generally a desktop PC), calculations and processing of business rules is performed on the client (although database stored procedures have been moving away from this for years), and the data is stored on a server. This was an improvement from mainframe based computing and distributed the computing load to (relatively) inexpensive and (relatively) fast client machines. Several problems arose from this shift, the most significant, IMHO, were the need to move lots of data down to the client for processing, overwhelming network capacity, and the vast amount of resources needed to maintain a network of complex client machines.

Oracle's vision of internet computing is a three-tier architecture. The data still resides on a database server. All of the processing that was done by the desktop client is now done on an applications server (the middle tier) which services many users. The end users have thin clients which are only concerned with rendering the user interface. This could still be viewed as a client/server architecture, with the processing and UI elements of the client split into two tiers.

Yes, Oracle software still connects to clients and servers. It also still runs on a mainframe with directly connected users, or processing batch jobs, or on a Unix box with users connected via dumb terminals. There is no requirement for a network to run an Oracle database.

Re: Oracle Applications

The current (and according to Oracle, all subsequent) releases of Oracle's Applications software (Oracle Financials, etc.) does not run in a two-tier client server environment. The back end database can still be anywhere the Oracle Server software runs. The font end interface must be accessed using client software that supports a Java 1.1.2 (I think I've got the version right) Virtual Machine. This can be Netscape Navigator, MS Internet Explorer or a Java Appletviewer (which Oracle supplies for Windows platforms, Apple has one for the Mac, I don't know for sure about Unix; I believe that Sun requires an appletviewer as part of any Java implementation).

The applications themselves are not written in Java. Oracle replaced the platform specific runtime engine with a third tier thin-client one that renders the UI using Java and a middle tier runtime engine, that executes on the application server and is still written in C.

Re: Oracle Developer

The latest version of the applications development tools in Oracle Developer run on Windows based machines only. They are written in C. These tools allow the developer to build applications (Forms, Reports, Graphics) to view and manipulate data in the database. The tools themselves do not generate executable code. They generate "executables" that can only be run using the appropriate runtime component of the Oracle Developer toolset. These "executables" can be run two-tier client/server or three-tier depending on which runtime engine you are using.

Re: Security

Exactly which security concerns are you talking about? Right now, these tools are used almost exclusively internally within an organization. I will assume that the internal network is relatively secure and that proper procedures exist for releasing applications to the user community. If your concern is public access via the internet (or perhaps someone building a malicious Oracle Forms application) there are two issues to address. First, the Java executing on the third tier is only rendering the UI. It does not process data, that happens on the application server. It is possible to add Java code to the Oracle supplied Java class files, and that code could potentially cause security problems. This is really no different from getting a virus from anything else you download from the internet. Second, although I have not yet worked with the latest version of the Oracle Application Server (4.0), I believe that it supports, and supports in the Developer runtime engines, all of the security mechanisms (certificates, etc.) that are currently available.

Re: Oracle Designer

Designer is a CASE tool not a programming language/development environment like Visual C++. You define your logical and physical database design, business rules, user interface standards, etc. in Designer. Then you can develop applications to access the database based on this repository. Designer will generate an Oracle Developer application or HTML code. If you want to use Designer to develop two-tier client/server apps, go right ahead. The same generated application, however, will run three-tier if you use the appropriate runtime engine to execute it.

Re: Java

Oracle is not writing its software in Java, nor is Java a requirement for using Oracle software. I would expect the Oracle Server source code to continue to use C, C++, assembler, whatever tools are available to get the job done as efficiently as possible. The Oracle Server kernel has always been platform specific and optimized for that platform. Java is the de-facto standard for the thin-client third tier. In Oracle's case, the Java code is only rendering the UI and it is fast enough today and getting faster. I have seen several applications that attempt to use Java exclusively (accessing the database using JDBC) and I agree that they are just too slow. If you want to generate applications written exclusively in Java, Oracle also has a tool called JDeveloper (yes, from Borland) to do that.

Re: NCA

Oracle never changed the message. Everyone else missed what Larry was saying. He has always said that the client side of client server was too expensive, too complicated and too expensive to maintain. The $500 NC appliance was put forth as an alternative. There is not that much difference between that device and a $700 PC with a browser installed, that is, if you don't install any other hardware and/or software. The iMac is also much closer to a NC that a Mac/PC of 3 years ago. You plug it into the wall, into the network, and go. It could easily be viewed as an appliance. Oracle, and its Network Computer, Inc. subsidiary have always been talking about the platform. It's the paradigm, network computing, three-tier architecture, not the hardware. The change in terminology from "network computing" to "internet computing" made a distinction between the misinterpretation of the message and the message itself. Larry's message has not changed. He had to get away from a term that was being consistently misunderstood.

I hope I've adequately addressed the issues raised in your post. I've built a pretty good business betting that Larry and Oracle are on the right track. I think I understand the technical side of this pretty well (if not, I sure have my clients fooled). I can't say for sure that Larry isn't building a Betamax in his garage, but I'm betting he's right this time too.

Have a good weekend.

-Michael



To: joe who wrote (9100)12/16/1998 7:01:00 AM
From: Reely  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 19080
 
Any thoughts anyone? Or am I totally out of line here?

No at all, one of the reasons I left Oracle after 12.5 yrs was the apparent blind rush to all things Java!!