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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Krowbar who wrote (27230)	12/22/1998 5:51:00 AM
From: Dayuhan	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Del, I agree with Emile's observations on the futility of the recent bombings, but I don't agree with the conclusion he draws. First, I don't think the Gulf war was fought to further Israeli interests. The occupation of Kuwait and the direct threat to the Saudi oilfields was more than enough reason for a military response. The Israelis doubtless benefited, but the war was not fought on their behalf. If anything, it was fought on behalf of Saudi Arabia, in pursuit of an obvious strategic and economic goal: keeping the oil out of the hands of a radical Islamic state. Second, I don't think the Israelis came off nearly as well as some think. They undoubtedly enjoyed watching the destruction of Saddam's army, but they were surely aware that some of the myths that ensure their support from the US were taking a beating. For years it had been assumed that large-scale US deployment in the area would require Israeli cooperation. The assumption proved wrong. The Israelis would not have been happy to see the US in military operations with a coalition of Arab states, or the increased closeness with the Saudi leadership. The last thing Israel wants to see is Arabs of any description getting cozy with Uncle Sam. The clout of the Saudis in our Middle East policy is high, and closing in on that of Israel. The Israelis have our ear, but the Saudis have the oil, and they're playing their US cards very well. Those jets are not flying out of Israel. How do you think the Israeli Air Force felt when it saw their planes on the ground - by order from Washington DC - while Saudi F-15s were flying missions against Saddam? Israel may have won the battle without fighting, but their position in the war has slipped. They've lost the "essential strategic ally" advantage. Third, I think Emile miscalls the current issue. I don't think this is all about weapons of mass destruction at all. The inspectors were forced on Iraq, along with the No-Fly zones and economic sanctions, as direct humiliation to Saddam, domestic evidence of his defeat, and most of all as an encouragement to anyone wishing to overthrow Saddam. The goal was removal of Saddam, but as this would sound vindictive and excessively personal, they held up the weapons as a a substitute. The mistake was forcing the issue to the point of ultimatum. Saddam didn't fall, and now the US has no choice but to admit defeat - intolerable at this point - or keep shooting. They left no rear exit, always a mistake (especially in retrospect). Again, I don't see an Israeli hand there. Sadddam's mistake was not moving against Israel. It was moving against the conservative Arab states that are so essential to the US. By doing that, he focused America's attention on who the real essential allies are. In the long run, I don't think the Israeli position improved. Steve

To: Krowbar who wrote (27230)	12/23/1998 7:21:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

Del, Do you know what's really sad? The U.S. government (believe it or not) is not always acting in its best interest. Why do you think the U.S. government never fails to insult Muslims worldwide and Arabs alike? Very simple, Jewish and Zionist influences have shaped American political policies and, to a lesser extent, public opinions through powerful political action committees and the disproportionate control of media. How else would you explain the U.S. breast-feeding of Israel? Why would a country with a 3% Jewish population (about 7.5 million Jews in the U.S. out of 250 million) adopt policies that insult and isolate the Islamic and Arabic world (more than 1.2 billion people)? When both Secretaries of Defense and State are Jews, along with an endless number of national security advisors of the same faith, including the head of that department, what else can you expect? If the U.S. would adopt policies that are STRICTLY in THEIR self-interest, it would not have earned the condemnation of so many. In fact, what we are seeing is a sad story of a superpower being wagged by its own tale. And that tale sadly happens to be a tiny illegitimate country with the most poisonous and destructive motives known to man. The sadest part of all is the fact that the misguided "christian fundamentalis" have supported and aided this evil, and disgraced Christ and the Church in the process. Emile