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Non-Tech : CYBERTRADER -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Mad Bomber who wrote (1605)	1/9/1999 12:51:00 AM
From: William W. Dwyer, Jr.	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 3216

MadBomber, if you want to be more realistic or conservative in your profit projections, I would suggest that, instead of assuming you breakeven first year, that you assume to lose 25%-50% first year, or even more. I don't see how anyone could realistically expect to breakeven first year in such a difficult profession, especially when it is commonly stated and accepted that 80%-90% of daytraders go broke or retire during their first year of daytrading. There is a lot to learn, a lot that cannot be learned easily, and an awful lot of false or misleading information (hype) floating around. Unfortunately, papertrading is, imho, relatively worthless. It does not simulate or take into consideration that you may not or will not get timely executions, good or expected fills, that you will have problems with your ISP, with your on PC, with your software, with your broker, problems with your broker's clearinghouse, problems with your telephone line connection, problems with the market and stocks being halted unexpectedly while you're in them, various other market risks, and so forth. Papertrading has no emotional stress and tension associated with it. I can make half million dollars anyday by papertrading. Live trading with real money, real pressure, and real technical problems, is another thing altogether. Very much different. Investing and various forms of short-term trading are not preparation for daytrading, where any little problem can and will occur unexpectedly at anytime and will cause you to lose a week's or a month's profits in just minutes if you're in the wrong position when the s*** hits the fan. Because everything is not perfect, and because things can and will go wrong, daytrading is actually a form of gambling. You're betting your skills are good enough to compensate for all the stuff that can go wrong, a very naive assumption for a new trader to make, imho. I daytrade, obviously. But I know many traders who have quit or gone broke, and I know others who are headed in the same direction. And I don't recall any who mentioned breaking even after their first year. I do, however, hear many stories of traders who make money on a given day. I believe most traders tend not to discuss the other days when they lose it all back, plus more. I extend to you my best wishes, however, and hope you will be conservative in your approach and ultimately realize you were actually too conservative. I recognize, of course, there may be other traders who disagree with my assessment here, and I respect their opinions too. But I noticed you asked for opinions, and I wanted to offer mine for what it's worth. I am confident this post will elicit other opinions quite contrary to mine. And that is okay. Bill

To: Mad Bomber who wrote (1605)	1/9/1999 2:17:00 PM
From: Brentsky	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 3216

Mad Bomber, wow, good questions!, I agree with Bill and others, daytrading can be very dangerous and requires great discipline and support. Since everyone is baring all, lol, I'll tell my story. Started in late September with 35K. Spent the whole summer before reading every post on SI. I even developed notebooks on different subjects, etc. My knowledge of the stock market in general was good. Throw that out the window :); daytrading is a whole new set of skills and knowledge. Also, I joined Ken Wolf's MTRADER trading room and watched for a couple of months before trading. So when I started I felt I was at a higher level than the average beginner and began trading with 1K shares. Almost lost everything. I had practiced demo (paper) trading but never really executed a stop loss. Not hitting stop losses cost me 13K the first two weeks. So now I'm at 22K and very nervous because wife keeps looking over my shoulder. lol So what do I do? Short KTEL and instead of taking a quick easy 12K profit, I get greedy and hang on over weekend when news sends it to the moon and puts me 95K in the hole. Remember, I only had 22K in my account. At this point, I'm seriously thinking I might have a heart attack!!!!! Well, Cyberbroker covered my ass big time. They kept my margin from being called and I got out with 9K 2 weeks later. I could have just as easily lost the 22K and been forced to declare bankruptcy!!!! But, things, thank god, have changed since then. I am hitting my stop losses and have turned the 22K into close to 60K now. I feel I'm on the right track now and have had consistent profitable weeks for the last several weeks. However, I was very, very, very lucky in the beginning and very grateful to be on board with CyberTrader!! Here's what I learned can make a successful daytrader: 1. Practice demo trading, including how you actually execute a stop loss, which buttons to push at what price, etc. 2. Get a good support system like MTRADER. Ken Wolf is an excellent teacher, plus guys like Bill Dywer have been very helpful with advice. 3. Get system in order before trading; i.e., computer, connectivity, etc. 4. When you start, only trade (like Bill suggested) in 200 shares for awhile, until you stop sweating when in a trade, lol If I had only traded 200 shares in the beginning, I would not have been at risk of losing everything. 5. You don't need the IQ of a genius, but you need to have some sense, be good at analysis of situations, and be very disciplined. The best traders I see develop a system or style of trading that works for them. For example, one trader like to only trade DELL. He knows that stock inside and out and knows when to get in and out. Others like high volitale stocks, traded with smaller shares. While others watch for high percentage trades which they can trade 2K shares at a time. Find a system that works with your skills and (most importantly) your comfort level. 6. Don't underestimate the mental aspects of daytrading! Whew, it can kill you. Make a bad trade. Learn from it and move on, don't wallow around in it. Don't play the shoulda, coulda, woulda. There is a stock everyday that if you coulda seen it, you'd be up 50K. 7. Hit stop losses, hit stop losses, hit stop losses!!!!!!!! The key to daytrading in one sentence: Once you learn how NOT to lose money, you will begin making money!! Good luck, you sound like you're definitely on the right track! Brentsky P.S. I can't say enough for having other funds of some kind to live on. I did and feel it allowed me to learn without forcing trades because I needed the money to live on.

To: Mad Bomber who wrote (1605)	1/9/1999 6:07:00 PM
From: kaz	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 3216

MB, First, let me tell you I'm a millionaire--on paper. In reality, I've got a relatively small account and I've been daytrading for just a few months. I read somewhere that the ideal trader would be a not-too-bright 12 year old boy (not sure why it wasn't a girl) because they wouldn't overthink a trade. They'd just do what they were told by whatever indicators they were using. Paper trading is so easy it should be outlawed. I agree totally with William Dwyer's explanation of the differences between paper trading and real trading. I also share your concern about the unbelievably high failure rate of daytraders. Sometimes it's so scary I stop trading. But here's the reality- some people do make money consistently. Why? They find a system that works and they stick with it. Period! Any deviation and you might as well flip a coin. Therefore, you must find a system that works for you on paper, meaning if you followed every signal exactly, allowed for slippage and all the times you would have lost money by following those same signals, you would still come out ahead. Then you have to find a way to do it for real. I put my trust in charts. Doing so is a lot like driving blindfolded and taking directions from a trusted friend next to you. Could you do that? And what if you followed their instructions exactly and you crashed anyway? Not a big crash, but a bunch of little fender benders. Would you still listen to them or just rip the blindfold off and use your own judgement? No one can know what the market will do. My charts don't know, either. They just help me to identify lower risk opportunities. It's difficult to accept that the market is unknowable. That's why a lot of people get angry with it, as if it did something to them. So, in closing, let me give you an example of just how hard trading is for me. At the end of every day, I print out my charts for whatever stock it was that I followed. Every day that chart shows how much money I would have made if I followed it exactly. There has not been one day since I developed my system that showed a loss. Never! Do I follow my charts exactly everyday? No. Do I make money every day? No. In fact I often lose money. Not much but still, it's striking to lose $250 on a day my chart says I should have made more than $1000. What's the problem? The chart says to do one thing and I don't believe it. I can't believe it. So I don't follow it. We're taught to think, right? Well, thinking can get one into a lot of trouble. Market Makers are masters of masking their intentions. I don't know how anyone can make money just by looking at Level II (but some do). Without my charts, I'd be truly lost. My goal is to follow them better everyday, and I'm succeeding (slowly). As an aside, this is my first year and I've doubled my trading capital (through sheer luck). I realized if I didn't change my ways I wouldn't have a dime within a month. So I stopped trading and started reading. Now I'm very, very careful. Too careful (that's why I'm having difficulty following my chart's signals). I'm also really cheap, so I'd never allow a small loss to turn into a big one. Conversely, it's hard to let a small win turn into a big one. Live and learn. Good luck, Paul Kaz