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To: donald martin who wrote (26882)	1/23/1999 9:30:00 PM
From: lorne	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 116814

Manipulate--handle or manage in a skilful or cunning way. Dictionary. You said. >>>Would you say that labor unions manipulate wages? or that farmer co-ops manipulate milk prices? or that HMO's manipulate doctor's fees? In any given market, whether it's for gold, milk, or Super Bowl tickets, you can be sure that participants, ALL participants, will be angling to take positions that they think give them the best prospect for gain. That certain players are larger, and by virtue of their size have a greater impact on the market than me (and I presume you) doesn't necessarily make them manipulative. If you have a market where certain participants can have their behaviour changed by the acts, or perceive acts, of certain other participants, I don't call that a manipulated market. I call that a market with some fools in it.<<< I beleive labor unions, farm co-ops etc. negotiate and for the most part the general public and players involved are aware of what each of the players are trying to accomplish. Not so for CBers. Lorne

To: donald martin who wrote (26882)	1/24/1999 10:52:00 AM
From: Mark Bartlett	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 116814

Donald, <<As long as you and I are still free to buy or sell, I don't see what's stopping it from being a free market.>> Perhaps what needs to be discussed here is the concept of "free market". In my mind, a free market is one where the participants stand or fall by their decisions, not one where certain players supposedly get "so big" that their failure can not be permitted, and they are thrown a set of economic crutches. IMHO, That is not a free market .... it is a rigged market; a market where all are becoming imprisoned by the acts of a few, a market which gives preferential treatment to an elite group of "investors". Free markets also mean equal access to all the available information ..... seems to me that we have a situation where certain groups are permitted access to certain information, not available to others. Again, IMO that is not a free market .... sure I may be free to buy/sell whatever I want ... but I sure as hell would benefit from increased data, upon which to make those decisions. I appreciate that in some markets, there have to be exceptions (to protect the interests of farmers, for example). One could argue that knowing (or feeling) this is the case with certain markets, one is free to not participate ... and that is certainly true ... but I do not believe that is what capitalists and capitalism are all about ..... at least not as it was originally envisioned ....... and I certainly do not believe that one group should be allowed to become so leveraged, the very survival of many world economies depends on their survival .... I think even capitalism needs some constraints, if all are to truly have the potential to benefit from this economic philosophy. MB