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Gold/Mining/Energy : SOUTH AFRICAN MINING -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: baystock who wrote (395)	2/10/1999 8:19:00 PM
From: .Trev	Respond to of 472

Don't try to provoke me! I was talking to an African friend about the situation in Africa. The general case of colonialism was incidental to our main discussion. The mention of your own continent was only in passing to illustrate that even old civilizations had trouble developing all the skills needed when they are in the position of making their own decisions and hence a proportion of mistakes. Nobody believes in his right mind that the colonial powers were anything but exploitive so please don't jump into an ongoing discussion without knowing what the whole background has been. And please don't try to put thoughts in my mind and words in my mouth . I'm sorry if my words offended you but having travelled widely for many years and having raised a substantial family to be free thinking and independent I believe the parallel was valid. That in my opinion is what should have been done in the colonized places. Have a good day and be happy to be free in a free country.

To: baystock who wrote (395)	2/11/1999 7:19:00 AM
From: sea_urchin	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 472

Ram : I introduced the colonialism aspect into the argument in contrast to the new ANC "democracy" where everyone is so free that many/most of the "previously disadvantaged" people will not accept any responsibility or do any work. I mention that during the time of oppressive, "apartheid slavery" far more people had jobs than now and the economy of SAf was vibrant. In the mining industry, clearly because of the need to contain costs in the face of rising wage demands and low productivity (and a low gold price), retrenchment has recently been ruthless. For capitalism, even socialism, to work there has to be a paradigm of order and a structure. But there also has to be a mind-set. A will to make things work. In my experience, in South Africa, such ideas are largely foreign to the mind of the African who, traditionally, grew up as a subsistence farmer in a situation where all the men did was eat, sleep, drink, make war and have sex while the women did all the work. Philosophically, to them, everything is the way it was made to be by the Creator --- an existential view on life simply did/does not exist. Unfortunately, colonialism did impact brutally on these people. And still does --- the effects of US financial "imperialism" are really no different from British (or Spanish) military colonialism. However, one cannot change the world or turn the clock back. We are not lauding slavery. Or any violation of human rights. Quite the contrary. And remember, slavery was not just a white/black issue. Slavery amongst the blacks in Africa was rife --- the whites merely cut themselves into the business! And then excelled at it! The contemporary problem, as I see it, is how does one inculcate a culture of honesty, thrift, and the innate desire for self-improvement and hard work into a society where these values are foreign? And, a culture of learning. Without these, IMO, no modern society can survive and there can be no economic growth. Consequently the lot of the people cannot improve. Irrespective of how much the needy blame anyone and everyone --- except themselves. The present approach of re-distributive Africanism/socialism is a zero-sum equation --- an attempt to make the poor/blacks rich by making the wealthy/whites poor. Judging from what we have seen in the rest of Africa it is doomed to failure. Because I live in Africa, I have a real concern for the problem. For me, it is not just a discussion in abstract.