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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Edwarda who wrote (30911)	2/15/1999 7:35:00 PM
From: Dayuhan	Respond to of 108807

It is about the abuse of power... WJC seems to have used the aura of his governmental offices to try to reap other benefits, something that the CEOs of corporations have been flayed for doing. This is true, and I wouldn't try to excuse it. But I'm not entirely comfortable with the common notion that any sexual encounter between an older male in a position of authority and a younger female subordinate constitutes harassment. If it really is a case of the boss pursuing the subordinate, especially if reward or punishment is even implicitly offered, then that's harassment, fine, flay the guy. But that is not always the way it happens. There are women who are flat-out scalp hunters, who will resort to any form of manipulation to accumulate the sperm of the rich and powerful. I've seen it happen many times, and I'm sure you have too. It's the other side of the trophy wife syndrome: youth is an ego boost for older men, power is an ego boost for younger women. I've often noticed that powerful men and beautiful women tend to treat members of the opposite sex like idiots. I think one reason is that men tend to act like idiots when around beautiful women, and women tend to act like idiots around powerful men. In cases where the subordinate was the initiator, or the act was purely consensual, who is being abused, and who is abusing power? Is anybody being abused at all? Should it be considered harassment? Steve

To: Edwarda who wrote (30911)	2/16/1999 12:02:00 PM
From: nihil	Respond to of 108807

Edwarda, How does one use the aura of his office on other people. I thought that Paula and Monica were in business for themselves, were people free to choose. If Clinton used force or threats then it should be proved. What was to stop Paula from going to the Feds or suing under Title VII or the Reconstruction Civil Rights (Sec. 1981a?) which was designed specifically to rectify such pretensions by officials. Monica had a tougher path legally, but she claimed to be in love with him. You seem to have too much contempt for these women. People want very different things. Monica, I believe, pursued an all too common female strategy of climbing upward by trading sex for a better job (I don't criticize this role at all -- its part of human existence). I've known a lot of working women in my life. Most of them (not all) use their charm, and attractiveness, and femininity and even sexual gratification to get ahead. Most men when targets know exactly what's going on (although they can seldom figure out the details). Some of them try not to consider the fact that the woman's beautiful and sometimes available, but they often dream and imagine exactly what the woman instinctively intends they imagine (I don't think most women act so purposefully). Most man or moralistic (often feminist) women are simply out of luck. Some men court their bosses almost shamelessly (e.g. "How to Succeed in Business without Really Trying") gratifying other lusts of bosses. But I have advised a bank vice-president who wanted to get ahead to work on Saturdays and bring in her golf clubs and join the right golf club so she could give the exec vps some a good looking woman to play (golf) with. It works magically. The whole question of what two people can do together in or around th office is not yet settled. I refuse to give a damn if someone sucks up to the boss, I simply try to have assignments and promotions based on measurable performance related criteria, and try to shame someone in open and notorious relationships and friendships not to force a decision on the organization. Mentorship creates a terrible challenge, for the mentor often feels he knows far better than some one else how good the mentee may be. Any male mentor of a female mentee is in a terrible dilemma. If his friendship and support (even within non-romantic limits) is effective in helping his mentee get ahead, he has in a sense been unfair to the other women. Hard to believe, but I have seen generations of graduate students (male and female) court powerful professors to become their students. They rarely do this with their excellent grades and brilliant minds, but by fairly open adulation and almost seeking servitude. Very much, I imagine, how young squires sought a knight to serve, or young officers (like Clausewitz) sought to serve on a particularly powerful general's staff. I truly admire Monica's ambition and teach her as a model (not the model) in my leadership classes. Of course, I cannot impose my moral standards (such as they are on my students) but I say if you want riches and success, and are not too particular how you get it, here's one way it has been done. Sir Walter Raleigh and the Earl of Essex and Robert Dudley are other examples with much worse consequences (and a really ugly Queen). Were I writing Monica's story, I would entitle it "She Knew What She Wamted?"