Muglia testimony:
8 Q. IN ORDER TO MOVE THIS ALONG, WE WILL MARK THE
9 DECISIONS BY THE JUDGE, AND THE RECORD CAN SHOW WHAT THE
10 JUDGE HAS RULED.
11 LET ME RETURN, THOUGH, TO YOUR ASSERTION THAT
12 MICROSOFT REALLY WANTED TO SUPPORT JDK 1.2 BUT WAS
13 PREVENTED FROM DOING SO BY WHAT YOU HAVE CLAIMED TO BE
14 SUN'S INEXPLICABLE REFUSAL TO GIVE IT TO YOU, AND IN THAT
15 CONNECTION, LET ME ASK TO YOU LOOK AT GOVERNMENT EXHIBIT
16 253.
17 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
18 Q. THE EXHIBIT IS ALREADY IN EVIDENCE. I WANT TO DIRECT
19 YOUR ATTENTION TO THE E-MAIL AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE
20 FROM MR. GATES, DATED MAY 14, 1997, IN PARTICULAR TO THE
21 NEXT-TO-THE-LAST LINE WHERE HE SAYS, "I AM HARDCORE ABOUT
22 NOT"--NOT IS ALL CAPITALIZED--"SUPPORTING JDK 1.2."
23 NEXT-TO-LAST-LINE FROM THE BOTTOM.
24 A. YES, I SEE THAT.
25 Q. NOW, WHEN SOMEBODY IN MICROSOFT SAYS THEY ARE
46
1 HARDCORE ABOUT SOMETHING, THAT MEANS THEY REALLY, REALLY
2 MEAN IT; RIGHT, SIR?
3 A. PERHAPS. HOWEVER, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, IT'S
4 INTERESTING--NO, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, IF YOU LOOK AT
5 THE NEXT SENTENCE IN THE NEXT PARAGRAPH IT SAYS, "IF YOU
6 THINK WE SHOULD SUPPORT JDK 1.2, IT'S OKAY." SO THAT
7 DOESN'T SEEM--
8 Q. JUST FINISH THE REST OF THE SENTENCE, MR. MUGLIA, IF
9 YOU ARE GOING TO READ THE DOCUMENT. WHAT DOES THE REST OF
10 THE SENTENCE SAY?
11 A. I REALLY--
12 Q. BUT YOU?
13 A. "BUT YOU WILL REALLY HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY AND WHERE IT
14 STOPS."
15 Q. RIGHT. NOW, WHEN MR. GATES SAYS TO SOMEBODY IN YOUR
16 COMPANY THAT HE IS HARDCORE ABOUT NOT SUPPORTING
17 SOMETHING, THAT'S GENERALLY TAKEN PRETTY SERIOUSLY; WOULD
18 YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
19 A. WE TAKE BILL VERY SERIOUSLY IN GENERAL.
20 Q. YEAH, I BET YOU DO.
21 A. BUT IN THIS CASE--
22 Q. BUT PARTICULARLY WHEN HE SAYS HE'S HARDCORE ABOUT
23 SOMETHING, YOU TAKE HIM PARTICULARLY SERIOUSLY, DO YOU
24 NOT, SIR?
25 A. WELL, I CERTAINLY TAKE HIM LESS SERIOUSLY WHEN A
47
1 SENTENCE LATER HE SAYS IT'S OKAY IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING.
2 Q. WELL, WHEN YOU SAY HE SAYS IT'S OKAY, SIR--AND THE
3 DOCUMENT, I GUESS, SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.
4 LET ME JUST TRY TO PUT IT THIS WAY, MR. MUGLIA.
5 HAVE YOU SEEN ANY DOCUMENTS FROM MR. GATES IN
6 WHICH MR. GATES SAYS OR SUGGESTS IN ANY WAY THAT HE WOULD
7 REALLY LIKE TO SUPPORT JDK 1.2 BUT HE CAN'T BECAUSE SUN
8 WON'T GIVE IT TO HIM?
9 A. I HAVE HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH BILL THAT HE'S UNHAPPY
10 THAT SUN HASN'T GIVEN US JDK 1.2. NO, I'VE NEVER SEEN HIM
11 SAY HE WOULD LIKE TO SUPPORT IT, BUT YES, I HAVE SEEN HIM
12 SAY HE WOULD LIKE TO GET IT FROM SUN.
13 AND FRANKLY, REALLY THE REASON IS BECAUSE WE
14 WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH OUR CONTRACT
15 THAT WE HAVE WITH THEM AND DELIVER THIS TECHNOLOGY TO THE
16 MARKETPLACE.
17 IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE--FIRST OF ALL, I NEVER
18 RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL TO BEGIN WITH, BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR
19 CASE, EXACTLY WHAT BILL MEANT BY THE WORD "SUPPORT" ISN'T
20 REALLY CLEAR, AND WE HAVE, AS A PART OF OUR CONTRACT WITH
21 SUN, A SET OF OBLIGATIONS TO DELIVER THIS TECHNOLOGY TO
22 THE MARKETPLACE IF WE CHOOSE TO INCLUDE IT IN OUR
23 PRODUCTS, SO I'M NOT CERTAIN EXACTLY WHAT BILL WAS
24 REFERRING TO WHEN HE SAID "SUPPORT." LET ME GIVE YOU AN
25 EXAMPLE OF HOW HE COULD HAVE BEEN MEANING THAT.
48
1 THE COURT: MR. MUGLIA, THERE IS NO QUESTION
2 PENDING. I READ IT AS SAYING HE DOESN'T LIKE THE IDEA OF
3 SUPPORTING IT.
4 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
5 THE COURT: I DON'T THINK IT COULD BE READ ANY
6 OTHER WAY.
7 THE WITNESS: I UNDERSTAND THAT, YOUR HONOR.
8 THE COURT: MAYBE HE CHANGED HIS MIND, BUT THAT'S
9 WHAT HE IS SAYING HERE.
10 THE WITNESS: I UNDERSTAND THAT, YOUR HONOR.
11 THE COURT: OKAY.
12 THE WITNESS: IF I COULD CLARIFY ONE THING,
13 PLEASE, THOUGH, WHICH IS THAT OUR CONTRACT WITH SUN ALLOWS
14 US TO DELIVER THE JAVA TECHNOLOGY AS A PART OF PRODUCTS
15 LIKE WINDOWS, AND ALSO IT LETS US PUT IT ON THINGS LIKE
16 OUR WEB SITE.
17 NOW, WHEN BILL SAYS "SUPPORT," WHAT HE MEANS IS
18 BUILD IT INTO WINDOWS. UP TO THIS POINT, IN JDK 1.1, WE
19 ACTUALLY TOOK THE TECHNOLOGY FROM SUN. WE TOOK OUR
20 COMPETITOR'S API'S AND PUT IT IN WINDOWS. WE HAVE THE
21 ABILITY AS A PART OF OUR CONTRACT--
22 THE COURT: NO, NO. STOP. THERE IS NO QUESTION
23 PENDING. WHEN THE TIME COMES FOR YOUR COUNSEL TO TAKE YOU
24 ON REDIRECT EXAMINATION, YOU MAY THEN OFFER THIS
25 INFORMATION.
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