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Politics : Bill Clinton Scandal - SANITY CHECK -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Johnathan C. Doe who wrote (38617)	3/16/1999 2:53:00 AM
From: Neocon	Respond to of 67261

Nope, it is still too soon to tell...

To: Johnathan C. Doe who wrote (38617)	3/16/1999 3:58:00 AM
From: Neocon	Respond to of 67261

I thought that you might enjoy a little tutorial on the Catholic (and Orthodox) version of a couple of issues: 1. Election--- Although Thomas Aquinas took the view that God extended his mercy to whomsoever he chose, and therefore that salvation was predestined, after the Calvinists put forth an even harder version of the doctrine, the Council of Trent condemned the doctrine in favor of that of St. John Chrysostom (if I remember correctly), that God will's the salvation of all, and extends his grace to all, but that it must be accepted, and hence depends on an act of cooperation; 2. Faith versus works--- To Catholics, there is no choice. There is no salvation without faith, but the fruits of faith are hope and charity, and thus faith should flower in works. If it does not, it is possible to lose the state of grace, which must be regained through repentance. To put it another way, works can't get you to heaven, but egregious sinning, and an obstinate refusal to repent, can lose it for you; 3. Hell--- The early church believed that the patriarchs and righteous of Israel were in Hell, and that Christ rescued them prior to his resurrection. Some Catholics and Orthodox could not stand the idea that the great men of pagan antiquity, such as Socrates, were barred from salvation, so many believed the idea that the righteous of all nations were freed from Hell with the patriarchs. This idea was ratified by a pope (his name escapes me right now) in the 18th century, under the name "invincible ignorance", and was extended to all of those who came after Christ but were not in a position to hear the Gospel, right tried hard to live good lives. It is not an infallible pronouncement, and there are wider and narrower interpretations of it, but it is generally accepted. In addition, those who did not think that the philosophers and heroes of pagan antiquity had gone to heaven frequently thought that, although denied eternal bliss, they were spared the pains of Hell, but dwelt in the region of limbo, with unbaptized babies. Dante uses this idea in the Inferno. Since sheol was originally portrayed as a ghostly place, and St. Augustine said that he saw no harm in imagining that unbaptized infants were in the very outer reaches of Hell, and spared torment, this was considered an acceptable belief by the church. That's enough for this post...

To: Johnathan C. Doe who wrote (38617)	3/16/1999 4:15:00 AM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 67261

I thought that I ought to put in a postscript: the Church accepts not only contrition (repentance for the love of God), but attrition (repentance due to the fear of Hell). In either case, it believes that justice must still be satisfied, and the individual soul must be purified, and therefore that the sinner must go through Purgatory before enjoying the bliss of heaven. Although individual synods in the Orthodox communion have affirmed the doctrine of Purgatory, it does not have the same doctrinal status, since the Orthodox think that there has been no valid ecumenical council since the Great Schism. Some Anglicans believe in Purgatory, some don't.