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To: Chris land who wrote (25060)	4/7/1999 6:24:00 PM
From: PROLIFE	Respond to of 39621

Chris, Nothing wrong with Christians counseling other Christians about alcoholism Only with the Word IMO, and secondly the last person I want talking to me if I am an alcoholic is one who brags "liquor has never crossed these lips" type of person, you see? talking to those who were once alcoholics they told me that what places like AA do is to make you finally face your problems Good!!! God will use many means. Those who think that, "I would never be capable of doing that" are under a strong delusion. I agree and said as much in my last post about myself, when I said "not that it won't happen to me" , I know better to ever say never!! I also believe that alcoholism is a symptom of sin I believe I made it clear also in my last post that drunkenness was sin, one among many. Drunkenness can lead to alcoholism. We are all saved only by the mercy of a Father Who loves us. Sin always produces sickness, disease and death so why just treat the symptom? We must deal with the main issue with brought those symptoms on.....SIN. We are never judged for our diseases but we are judged for our sin. I agree, a battle I fight each day of my life.......for I have fallen short.... Wouldn't it be ludicrous for a drunkard to come before the lord and say he has no sin, and couldn't figure out why God had ever sent that disease into his life? No more so than a bigot, or a liar, or one who cannot love, or one who has no compassion, or a reveler, or a gossip,...............etc. Rev. 5:13 dan

To: Chris land who wrote (25060)	4/7/1999 7:21:00 PM
From: Jamey	Respond to of 39621

Hi Chris, Many people are of the opinion that AA is only a place for drunks to congregate and help each other to stay sober through association. That part is only the tip of the iceberg. AA is a God given program for a chronic condition of mind, body and spirit. The alcohol is just one symptom of many that point not only to the physical obsession but also to the emotional obsession that centers in the mind of the alcoholic. I can assure you that very few people can develope the "want to" in working the Twelve Steps of AA. It can only be successfully maintained by someone who has been humuliated and brought down to their knees. there are no rules or laws in AA. They are called recommended steps. AAs know that they are only one drink away from a drunk if they do not constantly grow spiritually. The reason there are no requirements is because the AA program does not want anyone to be excluded from having a chance to find sobriety. Most of the Churches have endorsed the AA program because after having experiences with trying to convert a drunk to the water wagon they realize what a powerful program AA is. Many others are using the same twelve steps from AA because it works when nothing else will. Gambling Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, are a few of the organizations that borrowed the twelve steps of AA. I spent many years in AA until I was clearminded enough to form a loving relationship with Jesus free of guilt. I also want to let you know that once an alcoholic is made aware of his problem, if he or she goes back out, it is there responsibility alone to accept the conquences of their actions. An alcoholic that practices drinking for 20 or 30 years does not get delivered from his addiction overnight. It is long and hard work and these people (most of the sincere ones) have a relationship with God closer than many Christians. Santiago

To: Chris land who wrote (25060)	4/7/1999 8:30:00 PM
From: Alan Markoff	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Wouldn't it be ludicrous for a drunkard to come before the lord and say he has no sin, Wouldn't it be ludicrous for you or I to come before the lord and say we have no sin. Are you on some sort of drug? Alan

To: Chris land who wrote (25060)	4/7/1999 10:34:00 PM
From: O'Hara	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

><>...Chris, AA is not a church...><> It is a clinical environment geared to help alcoholics.! Not spiritually depleted souls! What's sad is that what's offered in return are only the carnal desires that they once enjoyed before ever turning alcohol. Even if they are successful in turning away from the bottle they are still left spiritually destitute. Filling them spiritually is not the responsibility of AA. Just as it is not their claim, nor their responsibility, to fill their bank accounts or refrigerators, or their houses with furniture. Not even their lives with friends or family. AA's expertise is in helping people with their alcohol addiction only, and in that regard they have a very respectable record. You also stated: I also believe that alcoholism is a symptom of sin. What in the world does that mean?.... Forget it Chris, I don't even want to get into it with you. Luke 18:10-14 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican...... (or put in your own noun .....how about....... or even as this drunkard) 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (KJV) Gotta go, I've got work to do for the Kingdom! Talk to you later. Shalom...><>

To: Chris land who wrote (25060)	4/8/1999 9:13:00 AM
From: mark silvers	Respond to of 39621

Chris, <<Nothing wrong with Christians counseling other Christians about alcoholism but for a Christian to lean upon the support of the world to crack their addiction is IMO unfruitful.>> With all due respect, that is just wrong. Would you only go to a Chrisitian doctor? If you needed surgery, would you want the best, and most readily available? wouldn't god want for you to recieve the most and greatest help? YOur words are potentially harmful to people who need love and support from the best sources, not counseling from well meaning, but not qualified people of the same faith. Mark