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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (34231)4/9/1999 9:43:00 PM
From: jbe  Respond to of 108807
 
To respond to some of your points, Chuzzlewit:

I suppose that the genius of America (once we decided
that American Indians and Asians were indeed people) is that in spite of failing
to make a melting pot, we at least have come up with a decent medley. Maybe
this is the result of everyone, save American Indians, being of immigrant origin.
And maybe that's the solution -- uproot all of Europe and move them somewhere
else [tongue in cheek].


You were right to put your tongue in your cheek, because of course we can't uproot all of Europe, let alone all of Africa, all of Asia, and all of Latin America...We have to realize that when people came here (or to Canada, Australia, and perhaps also New Zealand) they consciously, deliberately left their homelands and their old national loyalties behind. (Here we may need to make yet another exception: blacks, after all, did not immigrate here by their own choice.) Americans do not constitute a nationality: they constitute a body of people who share the same citizenship.

We can't expect others to emulate us. As a matter of fact, when they DO try, the results can potentially be very horrid indeed. For example, some years ago, liberal Russians who still wanted to emulate the Americans thought it would be great if the Russian Federation could be transformed into a sort of United States. They were in favor of getting rid of all the ethnic republics, consolidating them with the Russian provinces, and creating new states on the American model, which would all have equal rights and responsibilities. Sound good? But had this actually been attempted, it would have been a total disaster. It would have ensured the absolute dominance of the Russian ethnos (82% of the population), and have either completely Russified everyone else or provoked ethnic violence on a scale never even dreamed of. When people live in their homelands, and have no desire to go off to seek their fortunes elsewhere, they will fight tooth and nail to defend their uniqueness and their little bit of territory..Big nations have a way of not understanding that.

Of course the ultimate solution is clear: create stable political systems which guarantee equal rights and limited autonomy to ethnic minorities.

Of course? What if the ethnic minorities are and historically have always been the majority in the area where they live? What if, at some time in the past, they had an independent state of their own? What if they were absorbed into the country where they now reside only as the result of forcible conquest? Are the Tibetans, for example, an "ethnic minority", or a forcibly conquered people who deserve to get their independence back?

Why, in other words, should "minor peoples" be eternally dependent on the good will of "major peoples", and resign themselves to nothing more than "limited autonomy" from now till the end of time?

Bear in mind that I am not disagreeing with you. Like Prufrock, I just like raising questions that may disturb the universe (particularly the universe of the fat cats who rule it).

Oops, sorry, I forgot you were a cat. (Are you fat?)

One other point: self-determination and non-interference in the affairs of other countries are not coterminous. Quite the opposite. The principle of the right of peoples to self-determination has been used to challenge the doctrine of non-interference, which is linked to the principle of territorial integrity & the sanctity of international borders.

There is another aspect to this whole mess that we have not really touched on: and that is the issue of genocide, which according to the 1948 Genocide Convention, is a punishable crime against international law.

So, till next time...

Joan




To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (34231)4/9/1999 11:58:00 PM
From: nihil  Respond to of 108807
 
Interfere with America's racism

The US has signed extradiction treaties with many countries, and there are many examples of people deported from or extradited from the U.S. for war crimes trials elsewhere. There was a special unit in DOJ to tract down WWII criminals before they died, and several famous cases.
Many countries will not give up their criminals -- Libya and Israel come to mind -- but now instead of sheltering, Israel tries its own, and Libya delivers plane bombers for trials in the Netherlands. Serbian genocide practitioners are on trial, as are Ruandan. It working -- slowly, but well.



To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (34231)4/10/1999 12:30:00 PM
From: jbe  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
Back to the rack: Genocide & Non-Interference

Chuzzlewit, in one of your recent posts re the Kosovo issue, you raise the following question:

"How would the United States have reacted if a foreign nation attempted to interfere with America's racism that extended into the early 1960s?"

First of all, institutionalized racism (officially sanctioned & legitimated racism) did not exist everywhere in the United States -- only in the southern states that had apartheid laws. It was the federal government, after all, that ordered the integration of Little Rock schools.

Secondly, U.S. racism in the '50's and '60's did not reach the level of genocide -- the systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of a national/ethnic/religious group. (Lest you think I condone racism, let me note that I come of an old abolitionist family, and saw for myself, as a child in Alabama, what racism was really like.)

Besides, the United States did not sign the UN's 1948 Genocide Convention until ten years ago, so would not have considered itself bound by it, anyway. (To this day, only about 2/3 of the countries of the world have signed it.)

In any event, the Genocide Convention introduced a radical new concept into international law: the concept of genocide as a crime against the international community. It spells out clearly that it is the DUTY of Convention signatories to intervene in the internal affairs of any country that practices genocide, not only in order to stop it while it is in progress, but also in order to PREVENT it. See Article I:

The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Now, quite a number of people have been brought before tribunals for the crime of genocide. But they have usually been on the "losing" side. What do you do if they are the winners? And if a whole government, not just isolated individuals, is responsible for the crime? And, more importantly, how exactly do you PREVENT genocide?
And in the process, at what point do you decide that "ordinary" persecution and/or ethnic cleansing has crossed the line and has become outright genocide? Article 1 defines genocide very broadly and very loosely:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group.
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Practice has shown that statesmen are very reluctant to use "the g-word", because that would oblige them to take action (perhaps even military action). Visiting Kigali, in 1998, President Clinton apologized as follows for the international community's failure to move to end the massacre of Rwandan Tutsis in 1994: "We did not immediately call those crimes by their rightful name: genocide." (There was already a UN peacekeeping force in Rwanda, and the commander had begged -- in vain -- for 5,000 more men to stop the bloodshed.)

NATO's bombing action raises a whole host of questions in this regard:

1) Was genocide in progress before the bombing? Is it in progress now?

2) Should NATO have acted under the aegis of the UN Security Council, even though it was obvious from the outset that two members of the Security Council -- Russia and China -- would have opposed any such action? (After all, Article 1 does state that "contracting parties" are obliged to stop or prevent genocide, not that they can only do so if the Security Council agrees to it.)

3) Just how realistic -- or realizable -- is the Genocide Convention, anyway? Is this just another example of an international legal document that is observed only when it is convenient to observe, and ignored in other cases? How can you force countries that do not WANT to intervene in the affairs of another "sovereign country" to do so?

4) Does selective enforcement of the Genocide Convention only foster cynicism? For example, when my oldest son heard that NATO planes had flown off to bomb Yugoslavia, he asked (tongue-in-cheek, of course): "Are they going to kill two birds with one stone, and continue on to bomb Turkey?"

The obvious answer to that is, of course, No. Turkey is a member of NATO. NATO cannot bomb itself, as it were. But the question points to an inherent difficulty in all such actions: enforcing the "rules" in some places only draws attention to the failure to enforce them elsewhere. Does that mean they should never be enforced?

And so forth and so on....

Joan