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Pastimes : Kosovo -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Abner Hosmer who wrote (3617)4/13/1999 10:38:00 PM
From: George Papadopoulos  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 17770
 
> But for the military or police forces of the State to conduct offensive operations against the civilian populace is criminal, and should be punished accordingly.

Sure it is criminal and it has been going on since humans inhabited this planet!

>Parties on both sides have given way to lawlessness and murder, and I would like to see those responsible tried for their crimes.

So who will be the judge?



To: Abner Hosmer who wrote (3617)4/13/1999 10:40:00 PM
From: George Papadopoulos  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 17770
 
straitstimes.asia1.com.sg

APR 13 1999

Vietnam again in
Yugoslavia?

By GREGORY CLARK

THE shadow of Vietnam hangs heavily
over events in Yugoslavia. Once again
Western policymakers have proven unable
to grasp the reality of events in distant
lands with complex backgrounds.

Both disasters began with bad bouts of
historical amnesia. In Vietnam, we were
supposed to forget the 1954 Geneva
Accords that had promised early
reunification of Vietnam, and to ignore the
brutal suppression of pro-communist
elements in South Vietnam soon after.

Instead, we were presented with the image
of vicious guerillas backed by Hanoi and
China who had suddenly emerged to
overthrow a friendly and legitimate South
Vietnamese government. Massive Western
intervention was thoroughly justified --
morally, legally and politically.

In Yugoslavia, we are supposed to forget
the dreadful World War II massacres of
Serbs at the hands of pro-Nazi Croatians
and Muslims. Instead, it was taken for
granted that with the Western-encouraged,
post-Cold War breakup of former
Yugoslavia, the Serbs would accept
minority status in an artificial,
Muslim-dominated state of Bosnia and in a
still fairly unrepentant Croatia.

And this is in a part of the world where
memories last long and revenge is fierce.

When the Serbs did retaliate by cleansing
brutally some of the areas from which they
themselves had been cleansed brutally a
little more than a generation earlier, we
were supposed to be shocked and
horrified. No one criticised the Western
policymakers who had created the mess in
the first place.

The parallels continue in the way the West,
having worked itself into a lather of moral
indignation, has since bypassed numerous
chances to end the fighting.

In Vietnam, the obvious solution all along
was to get North and South to talk to each
other and seek compromise. But to the
Cold War moralists that was selling out to
the communist enemy and would see the
rest of South-east Asia collapse like
dominoes.

So, instead of compromise, we ended up
with total confrontation, the West's total
defeat, three million dead, the bombing of
Cambodia and Laos, and no dominoes.

In Bosnia, and to some extent Croatia, the
obvious answer is to separate the warring
ethnic groups into autonomous regions. But
when the West Europeans finally began to
realise this, with the Vance-Owen
proposals for a partial breakup of Bosnia,
they were told by the US that "we are not
into maps".

A few years later, with many more tens of
thousands killed or displaced, the US, with
its Dayton accords, decided that it is very
much into maps after all.

That ended the conflict, though not without
a lot more Western moralising about the
need to punish war criminals and to keep
the framework of the Bosnian state intact.

(The US sees a Bosnian breakup as a
threat to its own model of unity in ethnic
diversity, just as a Vietnam reunification
was a threat to its belief that no one could
possibly want to live under a communist
regime).

But the mistakes do not end there. With
Dayton, there was some Nato bombing of
Serbian positions and threats of more.
From this came the idea that it was the
bombing that had forced a Serbian
concession.

That, combined with a by-now anti-Serb
bias in Western media and official
attitudes, set the stage for the Kosovo
disaster.

True, Serbian crackdowns in Kosovo
leading to the rise of the radical Kosovo
Liberation Army guerilla movement also
helped set the stage. But from then on the
Serbian dilemma followed that of the US
in Vietnam closely -- ruthless military
action to root out guerillas enjoying
popular support, atrocities by troops,
massive destruction in the countryside and
the displacement of population...

In this situation the only way to avoid
massive killing lies in talking to moderates
on the other side to find a compromise as
soon as possible.

This was rejected by the US in Vietnam,
and under the recent US-sponsored
doctrine that says anyone who attacks me
or my friend is a terrorist who has to be
exterminated, Belgrade is also entitled to
reject it.

Fortunately, in Kosovo, unlike Vietnam,
outside pressure guaranteed that there
would be talks. But for talks to succeed,
the West needed to distance itself from
KLA radicals and throw full backing
behind the moderates. This it has not done.

This failure, combined with more threats
to bomb the Serbs if they did not bow to
Western wishes, strengthened the
no-compromise elements in the KLA and
undercut the ethnic Albanian moderates.

Now, we have the rejection of the very
reasonable Russian proposal to stop the
bombing and let the Kosovo refugees
return (dislike of Moscow and concepts of
Slavic unity play a role not unlike that
played by fear of China in Vietnam).

Even stranger is the abrupt dismissal of the
willingness of the leader of the Kosovo
moderates, Mr Ibrahim Rugova, to
negotiate directly with Yugoslavia in
Belgrade.

He is acting under duress, we are told. But
at least he has fared better than South
Vietnamese leader Ngo Dinh Diem, who
was assassinated when he looked like
wanting to negotiate with the North on
ending the war. Shallow-minded media
bear much of the blame for this crude
immaturity in Western policies. They have
little interest in historical background,
preferring to report what they see rather
than report the other side.

So, like Hanoi and the Viet Cong,
Belgrade and the Serbs can do no right,
their enemies can do no wrong.
Policymakers find it easy to swim with the
media tide. To oppose the conventional,
hawkish wisdom is to be a wimp, which
was the case with the few in Washington in
the 1960s who had the common sense and
courage to oppose hardline solutions in
Vietnam.

Mr Yasushi Akashi, who was a candidate
for Tokyo governor, was the UN
representative who helped mediate a
settlement in Cambodia in the 1990s and
was then sent to sort out the Bosnian
conflict. US contempt for his willingness
to listen to the Serbs and seek
compromises saw him forced out of
Bosnia in semi-disgrace.

Recently, I had the chance to ask him why
he has never tried to publicise his own
side of the Bosnian story. His acerbic
reply: "Over Yugoslavia, you simply
cannot trust anyone to report you
properly."

[The writer, president of Tama
University, contributed this article to The
Japan Times.]



To: Abner Hosmer who wrote (3617)4/13/1999 10:54:00 PM
From: Machaon  Respond to of 17770
 
<< As far as I'm concerned, the rapists on both sides should be taken out and shot in the back of the head >>

Good point, but we would need a lot of bullets.

<< Parties on both sides have given way to lawlessness and murder, and I would like to see those responsible tried for their crimes. >>

It sure would be nice to see this happen, but I don't think that those committing the atrocities will ever be brought to justice, except for a few.

<< Unfortunately, I think the way that this administration approached the problem is reprehensible. >>

This is what interested me. What do you consider reprehensible, and what would you have done differently?



To: Abner Hosmer who wrote (3617)4/14/1999 8:48:00 AM
From: Jacalyn Deaner  Respond to of 17770
 
Abner - you wrote
Jacalyn, I don't care if it's war, and I don't care if someone did it to someone else last
year. As far as I'm concerned, the rapists on both sides should be taken out and shot
in the back of the head, war zone or no war zone. I'm sincere about this, and I think it
would be a benefit to humanity.

Ok, when are you going to washington to carry out justice as there is a rapist in the white house.

You see Abner, part of the problem is "don't do as I do, do as I say" mentality; Rome had exactly the same philosophy as it was beginning its crash; any way you look at it - we can not and are not going to get out of this one without taking that terrible tumble.

The problem of any WAR is not the scars of rape or physical damage - the tissue heals - it is what is rendered on the mind - what they see, what they perceive to feel, the demoralization of their essence. All that pain is going to be covered with a shell of anger, hatred, confusion and self destruction.

This should have been considered before our bungled attack that began this hostility - like an infection, this is growing globally and exponentially infecting all countries. The worst of humankind is coming to the front.

From reading papers and documentation on the state of our military and the actions of China; North Korea's actions against Japan in January 1999 and their continued threat to Japan; Sadam has just moved underground and is not damaged by our continued display of incompetence; etc. Palestine is getting ready for the big event (statehood) so the middle east will be aligned and emerge as United as europe WAS prior to this event - we have lot any strength to dictate ar determine the direction of any country, including our own.

Step back, take a look at the big picture, and focus on the "players" all of them see that clinton goofed up and it is their opportunity to step up to the plate.

Anyway, back to punishment for rape in WAR - war has its own special rules and once you engage in it - the winner must be "forgiving" in order to establish subsequent rules of behavior. This is a given - always has been. The problem is ALWAYS that while it is on paper - no treatment is ever provided to heal the minds and the hatred continues to fester until eruption comes again. Unfortunately, too many hitler mentalities make it to power - charisma - fools gold.

Take care, I gotta check my brokerage out today and do some DD on stuff. Jacalyn