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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (34851)4/14/1999 4:26:00 PM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
You didn't ask for my opinion, but I think your point is excellent. Wish we could put it to those who hate Jews as "Christ-Killers," don't think that's possible. I have no understanding of the sentiment, so I can't defend it.



To: Chuzzlewit who wrote (34851)4/14/1999 9:52:00 PM
From: jbe  Respond to of 108807
 
Well, Chuzzlewit, here is one more thing to throw into the pot of ambiguities you are stirring.

And that is the Christian millenialist belief that the "end of time" cannot occur until the Conversion of the Jews. (You remember Andrew Marvell: "Had we but World enough, and Time,/ This coyness Lady were no crime/......I would/Love you ten years before the Flood:/And you should if you please refuse/Till the Conversion of the Jews/...)

As this earnest discussion of a key Pauline letter makes clear, there is plenty of disagreement as to when, and how, the Conversion will occur. But it is of vital importance (at least to many conservative Christians) that it SHOULD occur. Thus, the Jews are key not just to the origin of Christianity, but also to its final triumph at the end of time.

Among New Testament scholars, differing opinions exist regarding the precise interpretation of these verses, especially the meaning of the phrase "and so all Israel will be saved" (v. 26). Those
who hold to a millennialist eschatology find support for some kind of mass conversion of the Jews prior to the day of judgment, while others reject this view on the grounds that it reduces the Pauline concept of "Israel" as a spiritual reality, largely if not entirely, to a political phenomenon. The varying interpretations of this
text generally fall into one of the following four categories:

1. The whole Jewish nation, including every individual Jew, will be converted in the future.[44]

2. The Jewish nation as a whole, but not necessarily every individual Jew, will be converted in the future or at Christ's second advent.[45]

3. All the elect from among the Jews will be saved throughout history.[46]

4. All the elect, both Jews and Gentiles, will be saved throughout history.[47]


iclnet.org.

Incidentally, it is because of one particular millenialist take on the Conversion (the "dispensationalist" view) that so many well-known evangelistic preachers have been such strong supporters of the state of Israel. In the dispensationalist scenario, the return of the Jews to the Holy Land is the necessary prelude to the Battle of Armageddon, the Second Coming, and the subsequent conversion of Jews to Christ. I gather Pat Robertson is among the dispensationalists, although he has also been charged with being an anti-Semite. Perhaps you ought to check one of his books out, Chuzzlewit-- if you can stand it. And while you are at it, you might peruse the book by William Nicholls (on Christian anti-Semitism) that N. quoted from a few posts back.

But I digress.

The author cited above is also at pains to stress that the founders of Christianity were quite aware that the Jews were "the instrumentality of God", as you put it, Chuzzlewit:

"Salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22), and the New Testament testifies that this salvation was accomplished through the life and work of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ born of David's line. The apostle Paul argues that there is a sense in which Jews even occupy a position of special privilege, for "they are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ" (Rom. 9:4-5). Indeed, Gentile Christians should not boast, but rather ought to
thank God that they as "wild olive branch[es]" are grafted into the "cultivated olive tree" by God's grace (Rom. 11:17-24).


Of course, both Paul & John still thought of themselves as Jews, if Jews "with a difference." Christians today do not think of themselves as Jews; and it can, and has, been argued that even trying to convert the Jews now is in essence anti-Semitic: once the Jews are converted, they cease to exist as Jews. They become victims (whether willing or not) of a sort of socio-religious genocide.

That is one of the issues examined in this article, entitled: "Should Christians Attempt to Evangelize Jews"? As the author points out, there is no agreement in the World Council of Churches or the "ecumenical community" generally on this point (or at least there wasn't a decade ago, which is when the article was written).

abrock.com

It's well worth a look, Chuzzlewit.

Now what do I personally think about this apparent contradiction? Well, I would suggest that it is a real contradiction. Human beings are ambivalent creatures, and so are the traditions they create. Could ardent Christians have a love-hate relationship with the Jews? (I don't think you need worry about the non-ardent ones.) What do YOU think? What has been your own experience? Or, being non-religious, have you had no experience with this at all?

Back to you, Chuzzlewit..

Joan