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Pastimes : Kosovo -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Yaacov who wrote (4251)	4/17/1999 2:36:00 PM
From: D. Long	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 17770

<<After 50 years of being protected, you have the courage to tell me that Greek people are against the NATO and US boming of Serbia, becasue you share the same Christian ritual and alphabet!! Your country enjoyed the protection of NATO and now, you send emisseries to Belgrade and refuse to give assistnace to your NATO alies?? If Greeks are honorable people that I am sure they are, they should leave NATO. and equally the EC and go their own way! What is the sense of being meember of NATO and EC if at it breaks rank the first time the there is a crisis!!>> In political philosophy, this is called the problem of the free-rider...

To: Yaacov who wrote (4251)	4/17/1999 3:48:00 PM
From: George Papadopoulos	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 17770

>Your post raised very interesting points. With all due respect to your father, that I am sure is a great patriot and man of culture, I can't wholly agree with you. You won't be the first one<g> >To begin with, Cypress was never part of a Greek Republic! It was part of Roman empire, passed on to Byzentines, and then was ruled for centuries by Ottoman Turks. It was occupied by British and then was given independence! This is 2000 years history in three modest lines! Modestly true, so what is your point here? >"Enossis" was not the Cypress Turkish idea, it was imported by the military Government in Athen. Greeks know that this military Govt was supported by the US. > The Greeks killed a few thousand Turks and Rauf Denktash militia killed a few thousand Greeks. Both side committed genocide against their neighoburs. I am not denying that the Greek side were angels, hey civil war is going war(looks familiar?). But I think that the Turkish side atrocities (here we go again) were much higher. >Greeks were about to send troops to Cypress to help Greeks but turks were faster. That is an absolute lie! As a matter of fact, when Turkey INVADED the sovereign country of CYPRUS the Greek military govt. attempted to send airplane help and they were TURNED BACK midway there...at Kissinger's clear instructions. > Turks occupied half a Cypress and regretfully, we have an stale-mate Oh regretfully, how easy for you to say. A 25 year stalemate defying UN Resolutions and all. I know people who lost their homes and family members and they ALL know that if the US was not Turkey's ally they would still be in their homes. Absolutely no Greek Cypriots were left in the occupied side, now that was some effective "ethnic cleansing" to be proud of!...That is why Greeks feel so cynical about this sudden humanitarian need to do something, it's all bullshit! > Nobody is a victim in Cypress Tell that to the refugees and the dead of this conflict since the occupation started! > You may not, but I have seen the doumnetry footage of the atrocities committed by both side! Both sides are quilty of ethnic cleansing and genocide! Oh me too ugly stuff makes the Serbs really look like angels. But the fact remains that all Greeks were EXPELLED from the occupied side and Turkey shipped in many Turkish citizens (not Turk Cypriots) to take their homes...now the occupied part is mostly Turkish and the Turkish Cypriots wished they had always remained a part of unified Cyprus since the economy there is doing so much better...But Denktash took advantage of this (again sounds familiar?) > Now lets get this facts streight. Do you deny that after the German pulled out of Greece in 1945, if it wasn't becasue of British and American help, Greece would have fallen to the Communist insurgents I do not deny that. But Greeks also know that this was in the British and American interests at the time and it was not done from the goodness of their heart. My grandfather was killed by a Communist guerilla in the ugly civil war after WWII. > Do you deny that if it wasn't because of the US and NATO protection, your beloved Greece would have fallen prey to Turks in the East, Bugarians, and Slavs in the North and Anver Hoxa Albanians in the West! Ha you must be joking. I have a brother who served in the Greek army as an officer (stationed in Cyprus by the way) and one of my buddies is now a helicopter pilot for the Greek Air Force. Turkey does not dare to attack Greece because they know that it will be a big mistake and stupid nevertheless. Bulgaria does not dare to do anything that stupid either, the Greek army will be in Sofia in a week. Slavs in the north have no problem with us really. And Hoxa Albanians my brother tells me if we wanted we can take Albanian in a day or two...But Greeks are not aggressive people and do not attack sovereign countries even thought the Greek minority in Albania has been mistreated for so long. Greeks will defend their country just like the Serbs are doing. What Greeks fear is being encircled by Turkey AND their allies the Albanians in a "Greater Albanian" scheme. >So, Mr. Papadopoulos, if it wan't becasue of NATO and USA where the Greece would have been! Who knows but please do not insult the Greeks by telling them they owe everything to the US, you 'll be thrown eggs and yogurt! > After 50 years of being protected, you have the courage to tell me that Greek people are against the NATO and US boming of Serbia, becasue you share the same Christian ritual and alphabet!! Yes, I am telling you that Greek people are against nato and US bombin Serbia. I never said that this is because the same Christian ritual (Personally I don't give a damn about religion) and same alphabet (it is not the same). It is because this is blatant aggression against a sovereign country for handling an internal problem, therefore to the Greeks it is an illegal and criminal aggresssion which shows the hypocrisy and the double standards of the US foreign policy. > Your country enjoyed the protection of NATO and now, you send emisseries to Belgrade and refuse to give assistnace to your NATO alies?? You see Yaacov Greeks always prefer to solve problems in the negotiating table and not by bombing. As far as refusing assistance to Nato just be thankful the Greek govt has not been more vocal against it. IMHO they are doing a fabulous job trying to appeal to the public and also not piss off Nato too much. If this goes on a bit longer I would not be surprised to see Greek people joining the Russians as volunteers to help the Serbs! >If Greeks are honorable people that I am sure they are, they should leave NATO and equally the EC and go their own way! Yaacov, Greeks are very honorable people but they are not suicidal and stupid. EC is the future salvation of the country and Nato still remains a good alliance to be a part of because Turkey is a fellow member and having these two countries go off on each other would not be a prudent thing to be allowed to happen. But I am telling you how the people feel, the longer this goes on expect the Greek govt to represent the public opinion more and more. > What is the sense of being meember of NATO and EC if at it breaks rank the first time the there is a crisis!! What a stupid analogy? If all the Nato members are forced to go along with a stupid policy that makes the situation worse for EVERY side, you are saying, that EVERYONE must blindly go along....Excuse me but the way I see someone is standing up for what they believe is RIGHT. Meanwhile bombs keep falling and everyone gets hurt...

To: Yaacov who wrote (4251)	4/17/1999 5:19:00 PM
From: gmccon	Respond to of 17770

<< Cypress was never part of a Greek Republic >> And none of the doings of any of those boneheads is the business of the United States. 800 of the 1,000 war planes flying sortes over Yugoslavia are American. It should clearly be the reverse, i.e., one US war plane for every 5 European. And when it comes time for NATO to go into Kosovo and step on all the Serbian land mines and boobie-traps, not one US serviceman should be sent in. Not one! Where was France and Germany and England, adnausium, when JFK invaded Cuba at the Bay of Pigs? And Panama. And Grenada. And Haiti. Or are the European countries going to pay us the $9Billion we're spending on their frigging continent? Those morans still owe us their WWII war debt!!! Wake up, America. Europe is Europe and the Monroe doctorine is American. This is Clinton wagging the dog, pure and simple.