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Strategies & Market Trends : Point and Figure Charting -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Don Pueblo who wrote (18770)	4/21/1999 8:28:00 PM
From: MARK C.	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 34823

Awesome perception. You have been bookmarked. MarkC.

To: Don Pueblo who wrote (18770)	4/21/1999 9:09:00 PM
From: Lost1	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 34823

ThatLucidCat, very nice presentation. If everybody on your planet is as smart as you are then we humans are up sh*t creek when the invasion begins. Lucid indeed.

To: Don Pueblo who wrote (18770)	4/21/1999 9:26:00 PM
From: accountclosed	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 34823

TLC, I want to say that I also thought this was an excellent post...thanks. I'm a P&F beginner, waiting for Tom's book to arrive UPS in the next couple days.

To: Don Pueblo who wrote (18770)	4/21/1999 9:37:00 PM
From: Challo Jeregy	Respond to of 34823

TLC- my thoughts on time & P&F - If one spends too much time trying to figure out the time factor of P&F, one losses time and the chance to use it profitably. But what do I know <VBG> (that's for you, Jannie-poo)

To: Don Pueblo who wrote (18770)	4/21/1999 11:39:00 PM
From: Tulvio Durand	Respond to of 34823

Excellent treatise on time. It ranks right up there with Stephen Hawkings' "A Brief History of Time". ;-) While some Piffers dismiss time as significant factor you correctly retain it as supplementary and important information that it is. In particular I second the notion of breakout from a long-time base base as vastly superior to breakout from short-time base. Pnf charts should be supplemented with time charts to get the bigger picture. Well done, TLC. Tulvio

To: Don Pueblo who wrote (18770)	4/22/1999 1:28:00 AM
From: Smooth Drive	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 34823

Hello TLC, Regardomg P&F charts and time: I've been P&F hand charting individual stocks and indexes for a number of years now. I wasn't too long into this activity before I realized that for me, one of P&F major drawbacks, especially for back testing, is the absence of time data. I've always thought of the P&F chart as a sort of living thing (especially when I hand chart it). I guess it's somewhat like a big ole bear, (real one, not a market) in that when the bear is awake, there is activity. Just as when a particular stock or index has activity it is depicted on the chart. When the bear hibernates -- well it's alive, but there is no activity. And the P&F chart is alive, but it too is hibernating. So, when the bear wakes up, I want to know when that happened. Especially on certain BREAKOUT patterns. All my P&F hand charts (which are in Excel format and I've e-mailed to a number of folk's) have two areas at the top of the chart that depict 1) the date of the column buy or sell signal, and 2) the date of the reversal. This makes back testing that much easier. I also keep a coordinate grid on some of the charts so I know when every X or O occurred. Somewhere back on this thread I posted a sample of one of my handcharts and coordinate grid. For approximately the last year, I have been looking for additional TA based indicators to enhance my P&F charts. I have studied thousands of conventional bar and now candle charts and the standard TA indicators against P&F chart Buy/sell and reversal signals. It's slow backtesting but I have learned one hell of a lot. (As a matter of fact, you and I have had a few PM's and you were kind enough to share some of your thoughts on RSI.) For stocks I don't hand chart, it's very easy to open a chart at the DWA site, then open up TC2000, and it only takes seconds to determine the breakout dates, reversals, etc., and see what the other TA based signals were telling. Has this helped me make money? Yes. Would I do without the other indicators now? No. Bottom line for me: I'm surprised in this day and age, that we can't simply put our cursor over and X or an O on the computer screen, click one of our mouses and BINGO, there's the date of that particular X or O. My good friend the code pounder genius tells me this is easy. But that's what he says. Take care, Eric

To: Don Pueblo who wrote (18770)	4/22/1999 12:14:00 PM
From: Al Serrao	Respond to of 34823

TLC, very interesting post. I tend to view time as an invention of mankind. Man created it the same way he invented every other measuring instrument. Time exists because man created it from observations he made that repeated themselves, the movement of the moon, the stars, etc. Time not only told him when to plant his crops based on the seasons, but also fostered specialization, mass production, organization and helped create markets. P&F is simply recogizing that time really doesn't exist. It's only an invention we care to use when it's to our advantage.

To: Don Pueblo who wrote (18770)	4/22/1999 2:15:00 PM
From: Iceberg	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 34823

>OK, my friend, grab your aspirin: TLC, You are an absolute Master at inducing headaches. The Bayer aspirin company could certainly use you to help propel aspirin sales. <g> You asked me to work with you for a minute or two. Ok, I will. Here goes... You said, >no movement equals no time I disagree. An X or an O on a PnF chart can sit there indefinitely with no movement, yet time [as measured by a clock] passes anyway. You also said, >Time does exist on a P&F chart, if we agree on my definition above. If there is movement, then by definition, there must be time. Ok, but does it matter? I say no. The "inferred" time you mentioned, from one X to the next X, or from one O to the next O on a PnF chart, simply has no meaning terms of interpreting PnF charts. If it means something to you, on your planet, and you are able to translate that concept of time into money, then great. But I'm far from convinced that what ever time that might be on a PnF chart, inferred time or otherwise, helps you make money. Now let me ask you to work with me for a minute or two so that I can once again try to explain to you why time has no meaning in terms of PnF charting... Think of a PnF chart as a type of vector. A vector is something having magnitude and direction. PnF charts could be considered a type of vector because PnF charts quantify movement, not in terms of time as you suggested, but in that magnitude is represented by the number of X's or O's in a row, and direction is represented by placement, either up or down, of the X's and O's. Maybe you would agree with this analogy: An airplane is on a heading of 260 degrees 45 miles from the airport. From a PnF chart, that's all the information you would know. You wouldn't know anything about the speed of the airplane. Why? Because time is not a component of the PnF chart. Therefore, without plotting time, you would not know whether the airplane was traveling at 60 mph or 660 mph. But so what? If all you want to know is the location of the airplane, the speed is irrelevant. Same with PnF charts. My understanding of PnF charts is all you need to know is "location"...location being the chart pattern itself. Time, if time is there at all in a PnF chart - you argue that time must exist on a PnF chart if two X's or two O's are present - is simply irrelevant, IMO. Now consider another analogy if you will. Think of a game of chess. What is important to the outcome of the game is the positioning of the chess pieces on the board, not the lapsed time inbetween movement of one piece from one position to another. Same with PnF charting. It is the positioning of the "chess pieces" [X's and O's] that are of importance, not the lapsed time between positioning of the X's and O's. It is my opinion that the inherent beauty of PnF is that PnF does NOT use time. It seems to me that to inject a time component into PnF chart interpretations only serves to confuse rather than clarify. I hope this helps with your concept of time and movement vis 'a vis PnF theory and practice. Regards, Ice