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To: DanD who wrote (28161)4/23/1999 9:08:00 AM
From: Jon Koplik  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 152472
 
O.T. - WSJ article about online trading execution, paying for order flow, etc.

April 23, 1999

Regulators Worry That Online Investors
May Be Getting Poor Trade Executions

By GREG IP and REBECCA BUCKMAN
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

It costs just a few bucks to make an online stock trade. The growing concern
is that investors are getting what they pay for.

Regulators and industry participants worry that online investors, without
knowing it, are sometimes getting poor trade executions in return for low
commissions.

Attention is focusing on the practice by which some major market-maker firms
pay online brokers for their orders. The concern is that in order to get those
payments, online brokers may be directing their orders to particular
wholesalers without regard to the quality of execution they give.

For example, a customer may pay $10 in commission to send a "market" order
to buy 100 shares in a fast-rising stock on which the lowest offer price at the
moment is $20. But because of the way that the broker handles the order, the
order doesn't get executed until the offer price has risen to $21. The customer,
in effect, paid $100 more than he might have, wiping out the benefit of the
lower commission.

SEC Looks at Payment

Both the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and the New York
attorney general's office are looking at payment for order flow as part of
separate inquiries into online trading, say people familiar with those inquiries.
The state's questionnaire to online brokers asks for "current contracts or
agreements relating to directed order flow and payments thereon" and
documents on "problems with recipients of your directed order flow."

Most online brokers, such as E*Trade Group Inc., Ameritrade Holding Corp.
and Toronto-Dominion Bank's Waterhouse Securities Inc., don't execute
orders they receive. Instead, they send an order to a market maker, who
executes it, or to a stock exchange in the case of some listed stocks.

The largest online broker, Charles Schwab Corp., generally doesn't accept
payment for order flow. But it does send most of its Nasdaq orders to its
wholly owned market maker, Mayer & Schweitzer, thereby benefiting from
any profit that unit earns executing the orders.

While most discount firms accept payment for order flow, the payments are
most important to online brokers because their commissions are so low.
Full-service firms generally don't accept such payments.

"Anytime you have a middleman in front of your trade, you have to wonder if
you're getting the best deal," says Bill Burnham, an analyst who follows online
brokers for Credit Suisse First Boston. The middlemen -- the wholesale market
makers -- "are making money off those orders, and that money is not being
created out of thin air. Wholesalers ... are essentially using the information
provided by retail order flow to become very informed speculators."

Wholesale Firms Reject Notion

But wholesale firms reject that notion. "The kind of executions wholesalers are
providing to online discounters in general are the best executions in the
business," says Kenneth Pasternak, president and chief executive of
Knight/Trimark Group Inc., the largest wholesaler, which claims a
market-leading 15% share of the Nasdaq market. A substantial share of
Knight's business comes from online brokers. E*Trade, Waterhouse and
Ameritrade all have equity stakes in Knight/Trimark.

Online brokers also adamantly deny they send trade orders to the market
makers that pay the highest rebates, or those in which they have financial
interests. Bill Yates, vice president and controller of Advanced Clearing Inc.,
which is owned by Ameritrade Holding and clears trades for that firm's
fast-growing online-brokerage unit, says, "You'd get skewered in the
marketplace for that. Your customers would scream."

An E*Trade spokeswoman didn't return a call seeking comment. A
Waterhouse spokeswoman declined comment, citing the "quiet period"
surrounding the initial public offering of its parent's global discount-brokerage
business, which includes Waterhouse and Canada's Green Line Investor
Services. A Schwab spokeswoman says, "Schwab holds Mayer & Schweitzer
to the strictest standards of best execution."

Market makers are willing to pay for orders because they make money trading
them. For example, the market maker may buy 100 shares from one customer
at its bid price of $21 while selling the same 100 to another at its ask price of
$21.125, pocketing the spread, $12.50 in this case, in the process.

Controversy Isn't New

Controversy over payment for order flow isn't new. Earlier this decade, the
SEC said the practice was all right, as long as brokers disclose it to their
customers. New order-handling rules and the reduction in the minimum
bid-ask spread to 1/16 from 1/8 of a dollar recently have cut what market
makers can pay for order flow. Mr. Burnham estimates E*Trade's average
payment received per order has dropped from $12 in 1996 to $2.90 now, while
Ameritrade's has fallen from $8.51 to $2.18. But growing trade volume has
offset that decline.

Mr. Yates says his staffers divvy up Nasdaq orders among six to eight trading
firms, based mainly on their speed and quality of execution records, he said.
Advanced Clearing examines monthly reports from each firm, "but the guys in
our trading room are monitoring this stuff on a day-by-day basis," Mr. Yates
adds. Advanced Clearing usually sends all orders for one stock, such as
Microsoft Corp., to the same market maker, according to Mr. Yates.

The size of the rebate varies according to the size of the order (more money
for larger orders), the time it is placed (less for orders placed near the busy
market open) and the type of order. Many market makers, for instance, don't
pay anything for limit orders, or orders to buy or sell a stock at a certain price.

Mr. Pasternak says customers benefit from such payments through lower
commissions, but he nonetheless wouldn't mind if such payments were
abolished. Like most wholesalers, Knight/Trimark promises top execution
quality through sophisticated automated-execution systems. They promise to
execute customer orders up to a certain size at the best bid or offer any market
maker is then displaying in the country. Mr. Pasternak boasts that his firm's
typical turnaround time is five seconds.

There Is a Catch

But critics note there is a catch. Wholesalers reserve the right in volatile
conditions to switch from automated to manual execution. James Lee, principal
in Houston-based Momentum Securities Inc., which caters to day traders, says
that can slow order execution and investors may discover that market orders
are executed far away from the prices they expect. (There is less risk with
limit orders.)

Mr. Lee says if the dealer senses the stock is rising, it might switch to manual
execution, slowing down the filling of orders until the stock has risen sharply.
At that point, it can then begin selling stock out of its own inventory. The
dealer can then try to buy it back later at a lower price.

Mr. Pasternak said his firm executes more than 90% of orders automatically.
He noted it is unrealistic to expect any firm to accept "unlimited liability" by
guaranteeing a particular price during volatile conditions. Bernard Madoff, head
of wholesale firm Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities, says, in fast
markets, "you can't [be confident] the price on your screen is the accurate
price, either to the benefit or detriment of your customer."

Critics don't question the right of wholesalers to go from automated to manual
execution, particularly as rocketing Internet stocks have set new parameters
for volatility. But some do question whether online investors are aware that it
can happen to them -- or have any choice in the matter. The NASD advised
wholesalers in February that if they deviate from automated execution during
"turbulent market conditions ... they should consider disclosing such altered
procedures" and the reason to customers sending them orders.

Copyright © 1999 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



To: DanD who wrote (28161)4/23/1999 9:45:00 AM
From: engineer  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 152472
 
And see the Palm with two slots in the top 10, imagine if they actually were shipping the pdQ....




To: DanD who wrote (28161)4/24/1999 12:36:00 AM
From: dday  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 152472
 
REAMED, STEAMED and DRYCLEANED-------- Thanks for the link------
A very sore subject with me.
I have been complaining about this to NASD and SEC for quite a while. Their response has been less than stellar----------nothing at all---------in fact, the local NASD office in charge of my region (I am a broker and ROP and in the biz for 19 years) did not know a thing about rebating for order flow.

The truth is, as I alluded to in an earlier post, that the client is getting the shaft. Upside down and inside out. Use a limit and you don't get filled and cannot get a status for hour on your order. ( This despite the fact that the stock hit your limit and went through it countless times). Use a market order and you give the market maker a license to steal.

I have traded with Mayer Sch., Meyerson and others. They are all the same. The big firms like Pru and Bear etc. farm out their orders as well for rebates. The article is erroneous on that point. If a large firm makes a market, I am sure that they execute in house. If they do not, they send it to a market maker who rebates them. I know this is the case with Bear and pretty sure on Pru. Can't speak for Mother Merill or Smith Barney. FSC, our of Atlanta which handles some 15,000 plus reps definitley gets paid for order flow.

Any limit order placed has an implied "or better" that is attached to the price. That price or better .............In order to rebate, you can be sure that if you received your limit on an OTC order that the fill was a better price than you received.

By the way and as an aside., I can tell you that I have personally taken these traders to task on executions------called and challenged with time and sales accompanied by best bid and ask in a market------you would be surprised how quickly they will adjust an order in your favor if you persist. There really is something to that ad about the broker 'fighting for that 1/16th of a point.

Sorry for the rambling but this article hit a nerve.