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Politics : Libertarian Discussion Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (2528)	4/27/1999 9:43:00 AM
From: MeDroogies	Read Replies (9) \| Respond to of 13062

I don't have a reason to tell Street to lay off, so I haven't. After all, nobody needed to come to my aid whenever you've been acting silly towards me...so I didn't come to yours when Street was calling you a liar. I wouldn't call you a liar. I think you have your own opinion, as misguided (even though it's "mainstream" and you think that's good) as it is. But I called you arrogant because of the claims you've made and your posting method. You've consistently tried to show people here "how much you know". Big Freakin Deal! I could do the same. But I have nothing to prove to anybody. Obviously you do. Probably due to some kind of overblown ego or an inferiority complex. More to the point, I was astounded by your arrogance with the little "quizzes" because we have a saying at my office. Information is good, but Knowledge is Power. Meaning - you can know ALOT of stuff, but if you can't compartmentalize and contextualize it, it's useless. You do, indeed, seem to "know" alot of stuff. So do I. But that's all useless until you put it into practice, and find a means of using it. Precisely why I thought most of the philosophy I took was bunk. Most of it will never provide anything useful to anyone who uses it. BTW, it's "Ockham's Razor", not "Occam's Razor". I stumbled upon it in my readings last weekend. Good luck to you. I'm honored you thought I was "promising", sensei. But I don't particularly care whether you or anyone else think I'm promising. I've gone beyond promising and have already started achieving. Now, you wanted Street to apologize for calling you a Liar. Let's see if you can take a moral stand and apologize for calling me arrogant and ignorant. I apologize for saying you have an overblown ego or inferiority complex (I had an inferiority complex when I was younger growing up in the shadow of my brother - I overcame it when he left for college and I became quite independent very quickly - so I know what it's like). BTW, I don't consider somebody telling me the truth to be rude. As long as it is the truth and not a biased viewpoint.

To: Neocon who wrote (2528)	4/27/1999 2:13:00 PM
From: Richard Babusek	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 13062

Neocon, & TheStreet, New to this thread, just reviewed your dialog. I'm loath to enter it, it's a little more like a diatribe, but there are some important ideas being discussed (or passed over) here. The ad hominem nature of some of your posts distracts from your points. I don't care about the personalities, I don't know anyone on this thread, but I care about the ideas. I think you both have good ideas to offer, and my feeling is that if I had an honest dialog with either of you, I could learn something, while I better be careful if I challenge your ideas (the only way I know of to learn from others), you may take personal offense. It seems you are both defending the fact that you are right. That's honorable as far as it goes, but being right is secondary to knowing what is right, and my sense is that's been forfeited here, at least temporarily. Philosophy We are all philosophers. If you had a bad experience with a formal course, I suggest you had a lousy professor, took the wrong class, or had an unfortunate misconception about the nature of the subject. Philosophy is just asking the eternal questions; Who am I? What's my nature? Where did I come from? Where am I going? Why am I here? The language is simple (not simplistic), attempting to open up the great ideas such as truth, goodness, beauty, freedom, equality, justice, etc. Sounds appropriate for a Libertarian (a great idea?) thread. I'm not one (yet), but I'm a sympathizer. Your suggestion that unwarranted complexity is a major cause of problems is a fine argument as far as it goes, this is called the theory of decomposition. There is also a topic known as the fallacy of composition. To have an understanding or overview of what many great thinkers said about your topic couldn't hurt. To know the limits of the realm of your argument is really important, or else you can be dragged into asserting a false dichotomy or other rhetorical error, and then be shown to be wrong, even while supporting a valid concept. Rhetoric can be used or abused, and if you don't know the basics, how can you defend yourself against the abuse? My point here isn't to show error, but to illustrate one of the eternal problems. That is, to learn almost anything (by cognitive rather than empirical process) I need to confront my current “feelings” about the subject. I naturally emote about any important issue, and sometimes my brain must overcome my gut. In a dialog where I am not the expert (virtually any dialog), I need to be willing to change my mind when necessary, or else how can I progress? Tools of philosophy (logic and rhetoric) are the only ones I know of to test the arguments handed to me. (I use argument in the mathematical or philosophical, not the combative sense). One question about the great ideas is, where do your conclusions lead? Do those who assume we are “basically good” take a different path than those who posit we are “basically evil”, or those who take a middle view? Are your actions independent of whether you see yourself as the victim of circumstance, the master of your destiny, or neither? Can you elaborate on where your conclusions lead? Can you define the negative aspects of your position? Often we refuse to acknowledge the negative aspects of our position, a trap that can lead to extremism. Then your topic becomes your religion, just to save the appearances of your self. Outsiders then find it easy to dismiss your otherwise good point along with your diatribe. I am one who believes (for now) every blessing comes with a curse, and to recognize the quantity, and quality of each is what being an adult is all about. It seems perfectly clear to me (and reasonable) that our greatest blessing is freedom to choose, and that our deepest curse comes from the exact same source. "Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers." - Alfred Lord Tennyson. Ricardo