To: +gmccon (32494 )
From: +Searle Sennett Tuesday, Apr 27 1999 4:47PM ET
Reply # of 32647
Greg : Pat Buchanan supports your view. And mine.
Meet the Press transcript, 4/25/99
MR. RUSSERT (Tim Russert, host): Joe Lieberman, Pat Buchanan, welcome both.
SEN. LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Tim.
MR. RUSSERT: Would President Buchanan try to convince an American mother that she should risk her son's life in Kosovo?
MR. BUCHANAN: No, I would not because there's no vital American interest in Kosovo. Tim, the Serbs, while their tactics are appalling—ethnic cleansing—are fighting for a sacred province that has belonged to them for generations. They're fighting and dying inside their own country for their own land. It has never been a vital interest to the United States whose flag flies over Pristina. And what are we doing bombing and attacking this tiny country that has never attacked the United States to rip away from them a province that does not belong to us? I believe it is an unjust war. I think we have failed in our strategic objectives, and it is now becoming
basically no longer a war for Kosovo but a war to save NATO's credibility and NATO's face. And that does not justify sending an army of 100,000 American ground troops into the Balkans.
MR. RUSSERT: Senator Lieberman?
SEN. LIEBERMAN: Well, it pains me to hear Pat's answer because with all respect, it reveals a lack of learning the lessons of World War II and, indeed, of the Cold War. I mean, Ronald Reagan did not lead us to victory in the final battles of the Cold War for us less than a decade later to allow a Communist dictator to commit aggression and genocide in the heart of Europe. Those are the lessons. Those acts assault our values. America is more than a piece of real estate. America is a series of moral principles that begin with the right to life and liberty that the Declaration says our creator gave us. That is being grotesquely violated, those values, in Kosovo today.
Also, the Second World War taught us that if you don't stop a smaller
conflict in Europe early it's going to spread and we're going to get into a world war. So now is the time for us to stand by our principles, to stand by our allies in NATO, who reaffirmed our friendship and partnership with one another this weekend here in Washington, who will stand with us when we are tested around the world in the future, and they're in Kosovo. American principles and American security interests are on the line.
MR. BUCHANAN: It pains me to disagree with my friend, Joe Lieberman. But Ronald Reagan, when he put troops into Lebanon and to stabilize that government, it was a just cause. But when the 269 Marines died, Ronald Reagan looked at that and said, “It is not in our vital interest. I made a mistake.” He had the moral courage to pull them out. With regard to Kosovo, there was 2,000 killed in 1998 in a low-grade civil war. There was no genocide going on. It was an ugly little war. The massive ethnic cleansing has been caused—is a consequence of air strikes and Rambouillet. We ourselves have ignited this debacle. Now, in my judgment, the ideal is to stop the killing, to stop the suffering. And the way to do that is to work toward a negotiated peace. Milosevic apparently has agreed to have international troops in there as long as they're not NATO. We want NATO troops in there. That is not a cause worth sending an American Army into the Balkans.
With regard to Tony Blair—excuse me, but this last week he has literally been the mouse that roared, talking about the United States or Britain going to a ground war in the Balkans. It is not going to be British troops humping up that road to Belgrade but American kids, U.S. Marines, airborne divisions. And that is not a vital interest of this country.
MR. RUSSERT: Would you partition Kosovo, give Mr. Milosevic...
MR. BUCHANAN: I would—look, if the Serbs—this is their holy place. It is their sacred territory. If they want to keep that, they've had it for generations and even centuries. Why are we trying to go to war to take it away from them? Of course...
MR. RUSSERT: Isn't that appeasing Mr. Milosevic?
MR. BUCHANAN: Look, it is not appeasement. It is his—Kosovo is his
province as much—how would we react if down the road they said, “You got to give up Texas and the Alamo”? How would Ariel Sharon react if an Arab League and the Europeans said, “You've got to give up Jerusalem and get out”?
MR. RUSSERT: But we didn't drive out a million Texans in train cars and buses and make them refugees?
MR. BUCHANAN: Look, Tim, you're telling me that the tactics have been
appalling and disgusting and you are exactly right. What triggered the
massive ethnic cleansing of Kosovo? It is my belief that it was the NATO air strikes that began this whole episode, and if we had—is there anybody here who would not accept immediately the status quo ante? Is there anyone who thinks the Kosovar Albanians are better off now than they were 32 days ago?
MR. RUSSERT: Senator?
SEN. LIEBERMAN: This is an outrageous claim. The status quo ante was about to be Milosevic moving into Kosovo and doing exactly what he's done, slaughtering the Kosovars and burning their villages and pushing them out. It is outrageous for Pat to say that the NATO air bombing caused the slaughter in Kosovo. Look it didn't require NATO to bomb Serbia for Milosevic over the last 10 years to invade Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, to bring about the death of hundreds of thousands of people in those places. This man is a tyrant and, Pat, you're wrong about Ronald Reagan. Remember, Reagan led us to victory in the Cold War to stop tyranny and communism. Milosevic is a tyrant and a Communist and what you're talking about is basically standing back—what would you have done as he moved into Kosovo and began to slaughter, rape and burn?
MR. BUCHANAN: You're wrong both in your history and geography. Yugoslavia began to break up. Slovenia had belonged to Yugoslavia. It broke away. Croatia broke away. Bosnia broke away. Macedonia...
SEN. LIEBERMAN: Did that justify him invading all of those places?
MR. BUCHANAN: No. Macedonia broke away and Kosovo is breaking away. You've got the breakdown of a country in which America has no vital interest. Frankly, I supported Slovenia. I supported Croatia. I did not support Bosnia. But it is not a vital interest of the United States of America, whose flag flies over any one of these particular provinces, republics or countries.
SEN. LIEBERMAN: That's like seeing...
MR. BUCHANAN: America's vital interest, quite frankly, Joe, is in peace in the Balkans. Can you tell me we have gotten peace there? We have widened the war. We have estranged the Russians. We have destabilized Macedonia and Montenegro and we have ignited, not caused, but ignited, the greatest human rights catastrophe in the history of the Kosovar Albanians. How can you defend the policy of Balkan Bay of Pigs?
SEN. LIEBERMAN: Pat, at the end of this conflict, which NATO must and will win, we will have established the principle of a free and united Europe. Lech Walesa, one of the heroes of the end of the Cold War, said this week here in Washington, “If NATO does not triumph in Kosovo, we will have a third world war in Europe.” Why? Because there will be no fear. Tyrants in Europe and Asia and the Middle East will run wild because there's no one on the block to speak for the values and security that we hold dear.
MR. BUCHANAN: Joe, the NATO expansionists and the NATO interventionists who launched this Balkan Bay of Pigs are more responsible than anyone for the possible—first for the ruin of NATO's credibility, and second for the possible destruction of NATO. You made a blunder. When you make a blunder, have the moral courage to admit it, cut the best deal and end it.
SEN. LIEBERMAN: This is not Reagan in Lebanon. This is not a blunder. This is a noble fight for a worthy cause which is the principle of liberty and justice and freedom and a stable and united and free Europe. And if we had sat back—look, even the negotiated settlement that you talk about, Pat, would not have been possible and I'm against it. I think we ought to have non-negotiable demands unless we had taken military action. This man, Milosevic, only listens to force.
MR. RUSSERT: Senator, last week at this very table, the former NATO
supreme commander said, “It's going to take ground troops to win. NATO
cannot afford to lose. We need ground troops.” Is it time?
SEN. LIEBERMAN: It is time—I hope it doesn't take ground troops to win, because I hope the air campaign, even if it does not convince Milosevic to order his troops out of Kosovo, will so devastate his economy, which it's doing now, so ruin the lives of his people, that they will rise up and throw him out. But there is no substitute for victory here. If it takes ground troops, we must use them. And as part of that, not only should we begin to plan for the use of ground troops as was decided at the NATO conference this week, I believe we should begin to deploy them to the region so that we are ready to strike and finish this fight if that becomes necessary.
MR. RUSSERT: I'll give you the last word.
MR. BUCHANAN: You have touched right on the basic points. They said we
have to win. NATO cannot afford to lose. What you're saying then is what is at stake, all the other things that have been lost, is NATO's credibility. You cannot smash and destroy a tiny country to re-establish credibility. That is not a moral or a just war. If we could get the situation back where all of those Albanians were back in Kosovo, we would take it. We can't even do that right now. Cut the best deal we can, end this debacle. Rebuild America's military and retrench and stay out of wars that are none of America's business.
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