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Politics : Libertarian Discussion Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Richard Babusek who wrote (2611)	5/5/1999 3:21:00 PM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 13056

I am conservative, and have been pleased to agree on some things with the libertarians, and interested in exploring areas of disagreement. The main problem is the idea property rights trump every other consideration, including the need for an adequate regard for decency and civic virtue. Feelings should not trump ideas. One reason is that the person who listens to his heart as an oracle has abdicated his responsibility to answer for his opinions, removed himself from scrutiny, and succumbed to arbitrariness. Every deluded fool "knows" that what he believes is true, and denounces others when challenged. How to arbitrate except through rational discourse? Freedom is a moral necessity, for we must each take responsibility for our actions. A nation of "wards of the state" is untenable, for where will we get the adults to care for us? Freedom is a practical necessity, because largely free markets are the best engine of economic development and material progress devised. Freedom is a political necessity, because the only way to prevent the depredations of government is to hold it accountable, and only those who are concern to maintain there liberty will do so. We must civilize the rising generation, and uphold civilized standards in general. However, refraining from interfering too much in the business of others is one of those standards. Generally, you seem to have made a good start in questioning the established assumptions of an academic environment, which is great! Perhaps in the future there will be more discussion, and less acrimony, on this thread....

To: Richard Babusek who wrote (2611)	5/11/1999 11:26:00 PM
From: MeDroogies	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 13056

Simply put, Libertarianism isn't about the primacy of property rights (although by extension of individual rights, they do play a very pivotal role). It is about the primacy of individual rights. I have yet to see a situation that can't be solved by a careful study of the individual rights, and whether or not one person has exceeded his/her individual right by stripping another of theirs. Some people say they can, but ignore the realities that surround the situation. Freedom is more important than responsibility. However, to be a truly useful individual, freedom is bolstered and extended by responsible behavior. That is to say if I choose to be a drugged-out loser, so be it. However, I have no right to ask others to support my habits. Nor should I be surprised if people aren't willing to help or support me. On the other hand, it is clear that if I choose to exercise my right to help others in need, it is likely that this responsible behavior will come back to benefit me in some way (spiritually, possibly financially). In order to truly be responsible, I have to set aside immediate gains and gratification for a longer view of life. Not all the time, but it tends to be fairly common as themes go. But this responsibility isn't what makes me a Libertarian. It is my right to choose to be responsible. It is all the rights that allow me to act responsibly. These rights are what make me a successful person, and make my life worth living. Realizing this, it is evident that I must support others' abilities to have the same rights. That makes me a Libertarian. Those who say I "must" do something because society demands/requires it are not libertarians, and would prefer state controls (which expand naturally as gov't becomes a growing organism). Those who say I am not responsible because I don't live up to their view of how a "responsible" citizen should act are not libertarians, and would prefer to remove my rights so I'll act more like them, making them tyrants. I prefer to live and let live. Things sort themselves out, though it is often a frustrating, confusing, and frightening experience. But I don't need an overly intrusive gov't to sort it out for me - for "society's sake" - because gov't is slow, stupid and rarely acts in the interests of the people (despite its claims). That is what makes me a Libertarian.