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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Chris land who wrote (38630)	5/29/1999 10:35:00 PM
From: Edwarda	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

Chris, please try to understand that just as Jesus did not beat people over the head with the message, so shouldn't you. Do not fall into the early traps of both Peter and Paul If one does not spread the good word (Gospels) in a way that can be heard, then one is merely a base clang. One shares none of the music of God.

To: Chris land who wrote (38630)	5/30/1999 2:30:00 AM
From: E	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

<<Countless people throughout history have faced the torture chambers rather than deny their faith in Christ, >> Brave people. They believed something very strongly. That of course does not make it true; but it does demonstrate that they believed deeply in it, and were strong and brave. Countless people throughout history have died painfully at the hands of Christians. Isn't life sad, Chris? Isn't the role religion has played very problematic? It has inspired such belief, and such goodness, and such stupidity, and such monstrous cruelty. Many different religions have done this-- not just your own, you know. People whom you believe will go straight to hell because their beliefs aren't yours have died bravely for those beliefs. Wouldn't it be beautiful if we treated each other with kindness in this world, Chris, and took care of each other's children, too, just because we are human beings, and know that kindness is good, and cruelty is bad, for human beings; and wouldn't it be nice if we didn't go about wishing on others (while pretending to regret it; but the self-satisfied glee gives itself away) torturous afterlives if they don't join our belief-group? I know that's too much to ask, though. Because it makes you feel so damn good to imagine yourself as special, so special you will survive, survive even without your brain, which will be dust, or your body, which will be dust, enjoying up in heaven the rewards of your current abasement to a notional deity while The Unbelieving Others are consigned by that God you so admire to an eternity of agony in hell; and that specialness is just too much to give up, isn't it? Well, enjoy it, while you can, Chris. Soon all of us here will be dead as doornails, and it'll be somebody else's turn to make sh*t up and try to get others to buy it. And many of them will, because it will make them feel special, special, special, special.

To: Chris land who wrote (38630)	5/30/1999 6:41:00 AM
From: nihil	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Lots of people, such as Nazi soldiers (as Reagan pointed out) and Bolsheviks, have died for what they believe in with as great a faith as any Christian. The validity of an idea does not depend on the willingness of its believers to die for it. The willingness of martyrs to die for arbitrary ideas does not convince me of the validity of those ideas. I don't even respect people who die for ideas that appear to be worthwhile to me. Jesus was full of wild, fantastic ideas that appear to me to be insane. Socrates let himself be killed from despair (the same despair that Jesus showed on the cross), rather than for some substantial reason. Aristotle, when he fled Athens, said he was not prepared for Athens to make injure philosophy again. A very sensible man, in my opinion. When one knowingly sacrifices himself effectively to fight hate, cruelty, or pain or to save innocent life I have respect. I think those who die to preserve a form of government that gives hope to those who want to live in peace and freedom deserve our respect. I think my ancestors who died on the wrong side of the Civil War threw away their lives willingly for evil reasons. I have no respect for them. I am a very demanding descendant.

To: Chris land who wrote (38630)	5/30/1999 11:02:00 AM
From: Chuzzlewit	Respond to of 108807

Chris, I simply asked whether it ever entered your mind that you might be wrong. Some people view deep and unwavering faith as a virtue. I do not. I would be much more impressed if believers subjected their views to the crucible of logic and fact rather than blindly following an imperfect book written by ancient, ignorant people to explain their existence to themselves. Do I want to gamble? Yes, I make such gambles every day. I gamble that logic and science will provide better answers than than myth and superstition. The Bible says lots of things, and many of them are demonstrably wrong. So let me ask my original question somewhat differently. If I could demonstrate to you that the Bible was wrong on at least one material issue, wouldn't you have to concede that the Bible is not incontrovertibly true? And if that is the case, how do you decide what is true and what is false? Maybe you don't need to be a Christian to achieve salvation. Maybe there is no salvation. Maybe only the Buddhists are right. Maybe there is no god. Maybe there is a God and he (or she) just doesn't give a damn. Maybe the only thing that counts is how we derive our individual sense of morality, and how we apply it to our fellow human beings. Does it bother you that the actions of many believers are motivated by fear rather than an affirmation of what is right or wrong? Just some thoughts from a skeptic. TTFN, CTC