Transcript: Sen. Joseph Lieberman on 'Fox News Sunday'
URL:http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,94329,00.html
Sunday, August 10, 2003
The following is a transcribed excerpt from "Fox News Sunday," Aug. 10, 2003.
TONY SNOW, FOX NEWS: Democrats running for president were warned this week by one of their own not to let the party drift too far left.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN, D-CT: I'm not going to stand back and let this party be taken over by people who would bring us to the political wilderness again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Meanwhile, a new Pew poll shows a solid majority of Democrats are not satisfied with the Democrat stands on traditional issues. So what do Democrats stand for, other than opposition to George W. Bush? We'll ask Senator Joseph Lieberman.
Also here, Brit Hume, Washington managing editor of Fox News.
Senator, that Pew poll seems to indicate that Democrats believe that your party ought to be more opposed to the president.
When you talk about your fear of extremism in the party, are you talking specifically about Howard Dean?
LIEBERMAN: Well, I'm talking in part about Howard Dean. But look, let me just say, generally, that the Democratic Party, as I see it, certainly post-Clinton-Gore, is a party that believes in fiscal responsibility, knows how to make the economy grow, believes in tax cuts, doesn't think that big spending, big government programs answer every problem, and is willing to invest — committed to investing in a strong defense and using it when necessary.
Various of my opponents for the Democratic nomination for president have taken positions directly opposite to the ones I've described. In the case of Governor Dean — and look, these are policy differences. These are healthy policy differences. This is what a contest for a presidential nomination ought to be about.
Governor Dean would repeal all of the Bush tax cuts. And that would mean an increase in taxes on everybody, including the middle class and working families who don't deserve it now, can't take it, in fact need a break.
Governor Dean also was against the war in Iraq. I was not.
And I believe that both of those positions that he's taken, the ambivalence of other of the candidates about the war, the support of big government, big spending programs, would take us back to the same argument that we had before Bill Clinton won the nomination in '92 — and, incidentally, got elected and governed quite successfully, bringing America both prosperity and progress for eight years.
BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS: Senator, looking at current polls, you still maintain a lead in a number of national polls. The polls look less hospitable to you in a couple of key early states, Iowa and New Hampshire in particular. Things look better for you in South Carolina.
But I just wonder, in the early going, it looks tough for you. Can you describe what your kind of game plan is to win this nomination?
LIEBERMAN: I suppose the good news in politics is, the expectations for me in the first two caucus and primary states are lower.
But look, even when I'm ahead in the polls, I've got to be honest and say that these polls are snapshots at a moment. This Democratic race has not gelled. There is an important policy discussion going on.
And in my opinion, what I've got to do to win the nomination is exactly what I'm doing, which is to stand for something, to issue a strong critique against George Bush: failed on his leadership of the economy, compromised our environmental protection, taken the country to the right as opposed to the center, where he said he would govern.
And then I've got to distinguish myself from the other Democratic candidates. I'm an independent-minded Democrat. I'm going to bring back prosperity and security and fairness and integrity to the White House, where it hasn't been.
HUME: Given the passion that Governor Dean seems to have generated in the Democratic electorate with his candidacy success so far, which surprised a lot of people, aren't you now in a position where you really need to kind of change the mind of the Democratic Party, or at least the core loyalists who turn out to nominate presidents?
LIEBERMAN: Brit, I understand the frustration and anger that a lot of Democrats have about the failure of the Bush leadership. Of course, I share that anger in a lot of different ways, but we can't let that anger allow us to grab for the failed solutions of the past.
If we're for middle-class tax increases, if we send a message of weakness and ambivalence on defense, if we go back to big government spending when we're already so deeply in debt because of the Bush fiscal irresponsibility, if we're against trade for protectionism, which never created a job, we don't deserve to govern the country. We're not going to be able to meet the challenges that America faces today.
So, in the Democratic nomination contest, we have begun a conversation. There's almost a half-year before the voters actually get to come out and vote, and I feel very strongly that I represent a strong core of voters within the Democratic Party.
And it's not so much left or right. It's really a question of whether we're going go back to the old ideas that haven't worked or go forward with new ideas that will make our future better.
HUME: Would you say, then, that Governor Dean is an extremist?
LIEBERMAN: Well, I think some of the ideas that he is reflecting are out of tune with what America needs today. And so that therefore, they're out of the mainstream of our values and our needs.
LIEBERMAN: It just seems absolutely wrong to me to raise taxes on the middle class today. They're stressed right now because of the Bush economic policies. Raising taxes would just make it worse.
HUME: Do you not sense, though, that out of the mainstream or not, that he is very much in the mainstream of where the Democratic Party now seems to be headed in its thinking?
LIEBERMAN: Well, I believe that that's what's going to be decided when the voters come out. There's no question that Governor Dean has tapped into something that — an attitude, an anger.
And what I'm saying is, I share the anger, but ultimately, to govern this country it takes more than anger. It takes experience. It takes positions that reflect the best values of the American people. And it takes the kind of solid leadership capacity that America will need in an age of terrorism and in an age of real economic anxiety.
SNOW: You know, Senator, a lot of Republicans think that they spun their wheels a lot by being Clinton haters during the Clinton years. Do you think that's a similar problem among Democrats right now, being Bush haters?
LIEBERMAN: We have a lot to oppose President Bush about.
SNOW: No, I understand that, but you're talking about the anger.
LIEBERMAN: Yes, but you've got to go beyond that, that's the point.
Look, I from the beginning have made the case about the failure of the Bush economic leadership: 3.1 million jobs lost; no attention to our hemorrhaging of manufacturing jobs; no protection of the environment; compromising people's rights and liberties; an attitude, an old attitude that virtually no government is the best government.
But you're not going to respond to that with an argument that big government is the answer.
SNOW: Senator, he's increased government more than any president in recent history, maybe since Lyndon Johnson. You've had a spending surge that's certainly unprecedented. Do you think he's spending too much money?
LIEBERMAN: He, in fact, has not only cut taxes so dramatically beyond our ability to afford, but you put the finger on a big part of the Bush record, which is that there's been no spending restraint. It's why we are going to face a $400-billion-plus deficit, which is going to cost every American family thousands of dollars in the year ahead to pay back the Bush deficit.
But what I'm saying is, he doesn't — the Bush people don't believe in a government that's out there to protect people when they have no one else who can protect them. They think people should be left to fend on their own. And that doesn't work out for most people, as most people in the county now know.
SNOW: One area of emerging cleavage between the parties is the war in Iraq. Al Gore gave a speech the other day. A central premise of that was that much of the president's policies toward Iraq were failed. Let's begin by showing you a clip from that speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Too many of our soldiers are paying the highest price for the strategic miscalculations, serious misjudgments and historic mistakes that have put them and our nation in harm's way.
I'm convinced that one of the reasons we did not have a better public debate before the Iraq war started is because so many of the impressions that the majority of the country had back then turn out to have been completely wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Senator, he proceeded to list six of those misimpressions, so let's provide a summary for our viewers. Number one, that Saddam was involved in the September 11th attack. Number two, that he supported bin Laden and Al Qaida. Number three, that he almost gave terrorists weaponized gas and germs. The fourth area of false impressions was — we will get to it, I think — I'm sorry...
HUME: There they are.
SNOW: Saddam on the verge of building nuclear weapons for terrorists. That Iraqis would welcome U.S. G.I.s and quickly establish public safety. And nations against the war would contribute lots of money to rebuild Iraq.
It sounds to me like Al Gore is opposed to you, when it comes to the war in Iraq.
LIEBERMAN: Well, Al Gore said in that speech that he thought the world was better off — I'm paraphrasing — with Saddam gone.
Look, you know, Tony, that I believe very strongly that beginning the war, initiating a war to get rid of Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do, that the world is safer, America is safer. Certainly the Iraqi people have a better future to look forward to with Saddam gone.
But I've also said that I thought some of the arguments made by the administration leading up to the war went beyond what was necessary to make the case for a just war.
SNOW: Which arguments?
LIEBERMAN: Well, certainly the 16 words and some of the suggestions about nuclear weapons.
Look, in 1998, John McCain, Bob Kerry, some other senators and I decided it was time for Saddam to go. There was enough evidence on the record — this man was a brutal dictator, he wanted to control the Arab world. He had weapons of mass destruction, chemical and biological. He admitted — not only did he use them, he admitted it to the United Nations.
So I think the point that Al Gore was making is a larger point, and I agree with it, that in both in part of the lead-up to the war, also in its economic policy and its environmental policy, the Bush administration has too often followed a pattern of deception. And when you do that...
SNOW: Are you saying that the administration deliberately lied leading up to the war?
LIEBERMAN: I think they overstated the case in a series of its arguments, which were not necessary because the case was so strong. That's why I've said that the administration's actions have threatened to give a bad name to what was a just war.
The case was there back as far as '98, as far as I was concerned, to get rid of Saddam — all the stronger after September 11th, because we would naturally say to ourselves, "We don't want to look back after Saddam sponsors some horrific action against us and say why didn't we stop him when we had the chance?"
LIEBERMAN: And that's why I feel that — without any alteration of what we did in carrying out the war was the right thing to do.
HUME: Senator, California.
LIEBERMAN: Yes?
HUME: Interesting goings-on out there.
First of all, what do you think of the recall process? Is that — a lot of people say it creates a banana republic atmosphere...
LIEBERMAN: Yes.
HUME: ... bad thing, shouldn't be happening. Do you agree with that?
LIEBERMAN: Yes, I do. I think recall is a mistake. I mean, there's an impeachment process when somebody has done something that makes it necessary to take him out of office before his term is over. But they just had an election out there last year.
HUME: So you think the process shouldn't be available?
LIEBERMAN: I don't — I mean, I think it should be in available only in the most extreme cases...
HUME: Well, the voters in California think this...
LIEBERMAN: Yes, look, they made their choice, but this creates the kind of instability in what is our largest state, the fifth- largest economy in the world, which is having terrible problems now — schools deteriorating; a once-great higher education system now out of the reach of a lot of kids to get in to.
HUME: So you support Gray Davis's continuing in office?
LIEBERMAN: Here's what I do. I support — I'm against the recall. But I believe that Cruz Bustamante has done a gutsy thing in offering himself — that's the lieutenant governor — as a Democratic alternative if Gray Davis is recalled.
Bustamante is experienced. The state of California can't afford leadership that hasn't been tested at this time. And Bustamante is an American dream story. Mexican-American child of immigrants, worked his way up to the Central Valley, been speaker of the House and lieutenant governor.
He's a steady, solid, independent-minded Democrat who offers the best hope if Gray Davis unfortunately is recalled, of taking the state out of its morass right now.
HUME: From your point of view on the issues, what's not to like about the candidacy of Arnold Schwarzenegger?
LIEBERMAN: Well, we don't know where Arnold Schwarzenegger is...
HUME: Well, you know where he stands on some things. You know where he stands on pro-life versus pro-choice, for example. But he, you know — he's a liberal, basically liberal, on social policies.
LIEBERMAN: This is America's biggest state, which is in the most serious crisis any state's been in in my adult lifetime. To turn that state over to somebody's who's had no governmental experience — look, Ronald Reagan, I understand, came out of acting. But Ronald Reagan was more than a celebrity. He had thought about, talked about, public issues for a long time before he became governor of California.
If the end choice is that Davis is recalled and the people of California have to choose between Arnold Schwarzenegger, a celebrity who has not proven himself capable of being governor, and Cruz Bustamante, who's an experienced, solid, independent-minded public official, there's no question where they ought to go. They ought to go to Cruz.
SNOW: Do you think Cruz Bustamante would make a better governor than Gray Davis?
LIEBERMAN: Well, I've said what I believe, which is that voters ought to vote against the recall. But Cruz has shown some guts in offering himself as a much better alternative if Gray Davis is recalled. And I think the people of California deserve more of a choice than Arnold Schwarzenegger and Larry Flynt.
SNOW: All right.
(LAUGHTER)
Well, we're going to — thank you, Senator Joseph Lieberman, for joining us. |
