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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: The Philosopher who wrote (40214)	6/12/1999 6:53:00 PM
From: Rambi	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Man, with his ability to reason, is understandably resentful and distrustful of any deity who sends horrible suffering and inexplicable events upon him. Yes, we give our children innoculations, but we also explain to them, perhaps imperfectly, but with touch and soft words, we hold their hands, we love them, buy them a cookie, we are there. THere are no such concrete reassurances when you attempt to draw a parallel with God. Unless you want to admit to the capricious nature of a god who can either heal you or stuff pepper of your nose and kill you as a parent of mine once did to her child. She was disciplining him. Why exactly should I believe that this deity is any more reliable?

To: The Philosopher who wrote (40214)	6/12/1999 6:56:00 PM
From: E	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

I am willing to say that if there is a God who burns children alive, 'He' must make this brain (that He, ostensibly, gave me to think with, and discern right from wrong with, as He gave me eyes with which to see and ears with which to hear,) able to conceive of some way that doesn't involve the ludicrous, cop-out words, "SATAN did it!!!" in which his doing this, this burning of innocent children, alive, when he could treat them as kindly as might an averagely decent street person... well, if He does that, He must make me able to comprehend why He deserves worship. The brain that 'God' gave me tells me it is wrong to worship a cruel deity. Make up a kind one, and worship that. Of course it can't be omnipotent, but there are worse things than weakness. Burning little children alive because you think it's a good idea is worse. When is someone going to notice that every description of the state of mind of the believer toward the 'terrible' God is a description of the state of mind of a child toward its parent, even an abused child, perhaps even especially an abused child? Believers seem to revert to an infantile state of mind; one in which it is necessary to put aside the evidence of one's senses and one's sense to let an all-powerful Other tell one what is right and what is wrong Those terms do apply to God. They have meaning, we know their meaning, we know kindness when we see it, and cruelty when we see it, and, because we are adults and not children, we apply them accordingly. I don't assume that any needle anyone sticks in any child's arm is a good thing. If a Martian asks you why you cause your child to cry with that needle, you reply quite easily. What would God say if the Martian asked him why he burns little children alive, and has them die asking that their Mama not be told? It better be good; and until I hear it, I'm not worshipping Him.

To: The Philosopher who wrote (40214)	6/12/1999 7:30:00 PM
From: jbe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Did you read "The Brothers Karamazov," Christopher? Do you remember Ivan's "Confession," in the course of which he rejects his "admission ticket" to Heaven, and rejects Eternal Harmony, if the price to be paid for it is the suffering of innocent creatures, the "tears of even a single child"? If you haven't read it, do read it, and you will perhaps understand better where people like E are coming from. Ivan's example -- the 8-year-old serf child, torn apart by dogs that his master set upon him -- is of a completely different order than your example of a baby getting a vaccination. How could being torn apart by dogs be ultimately "good for" that boy, in the sense that a vaccination would have been? Dostoyevsky himself was a believer. But he maintained that belief was only possible if there was doubt at its core. Joan