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To: Neocon who wrote (12404)	6/18/1999 9:36:00 AM
From: Andy Thomas	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 17770

>>The Japanese were principally defeated by the Americans...<< I think the japanese were closer to being starved out than most people realize. Behind the scenes there were peace overtures, prior to the first bomb. Also, as it was the Japanese had about 4 or 5 days between bombs... was that long enough for us to wait for a surrender plea before dropping the 2nd? Anyway, if you get around to it, check out the book called "Total War" by Wint and Peter Cav-something. It discusses Japan's looking for a way out prior to the bombs being dropped. >>As for the European theater, if Stalin had not made his pact with Hitler, it is possible that Hitler would have accomplished little more than a minor revision of borders. Stalin's perfidy emboldened him to plunge the Continent into war, and the Soviet peoples suffered for it. They also suffered for his decimation of the officer ranks in the course of his purges.<< Did you know that Stalin's great military opponent, Tukhachevskiy almost conquered Poland in 1920? It was Stalin's meddling which cost him the battle. Behind "Tuk's" back, Stalin convinced a couple of the other generals to attack Lvov instead of Warsaw, giving the Poles a free shot at Tuk's flank. I'm sure that was the beginning of the bitter rivalry, and it showed very early on what a numbskull Stalin could be. >>A lot of the casualties were sustained because of ineptitude and lack of provision for the looming conflict. Without the Russian winter, it may be that Hitler would have conquered the Soviets...<< The Russians got lucky a couple or three times after that first winter as well. Of Hitler: "Of kings G-d would dethrone he first drives them mad." or so the quote sort of goes... FWIW Andy

To: Neocon who wrote (12404)	6/18/1999 10:31:00 AM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 17770

Neocon, Re: As for the European theater, if Stalin had not made his pact with Hitler, it is possible that Hitler would have accomplished little more than a minor revision of borders. Stalin's perfidy emboldened him to plunge the Continent into war, and the Soviet peoples suffered for it. Sorry but the above is pure bullshit! Adolf Hitler got strong support throughout Europe on the part of a reactionary bourgeoisie who had the willies about Bolchevism... Even for praised-to-the-skies Winston Churchill, Stalin represented a far greater threat to Europe's bourgeois order than Hitler's corporacism. The truth is that the European bourgeoisie made one big, lethal blunder: from Franquist Spain (remember Spain's civil war in 1936) to (Vichyist) France to Belgium to...., European bourgeoisies thought they were in Europe's driver seat and Hitler was just a transitory clown who couldn't realize that he was manipulated. Indeed, the real, scary bete noire at the time was Stalin and Hitler was supposed to be Europe's rampart against the spread of Communism. That's why the Nazi party got all the monies necessary to set up such efficient organizations as the SS, the SA (Assault Sections), etc. I have (original) press articles dated back to the 1930s, including an article from Belgian daily Le Soir dated 1935 which explicitly wonders where did the Fuhrer find the money to thrive in politics and the Belgian journalist hints at oil major Royal Dutch (and its CEO Deterding) as a possible sponsor... It makes sense if you recall the fierce battle that opposed Rockefeller's Standard Oil to Royal Dutch worldwide since the 1900s: the Russian oilfields were already coveted by Western robber barons. Needless to say how painful was the backlash of such a sneaky liar-poker.... Regards, Gustave.

To: Neocon who wrote (12404)	6/18/1999 12:45:00 PM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 17770

Just an interesting link that might help you to understand this coined neologism of mine: Corporacism --a special blend of racism and corporatism as defined below: geocities.com Since you read French, here's a present-day case study: egroups.com

To: Neocon who wrote (12404)	6/19/1999 6:45:00 PM
From: D. Long	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 17770

That would be my assessment of the situation as well Neo. Certain posters on this board would take the fanciful position of saying that Russia and the Chinese (no doubt only the communist Chinese, even though the Nationalists took the brunt of the Japanese assault) alone were responsible for winning the war. Historical what-ifs are interesting speculations. What would have happened if Hitler had not launched Barbarrosa? Certainly the Blitz would not have accomplished much, and an invasion of the British Isles probably would have been ill-fated. So Nazi Germany probably would have come to an agreement with Britain, as it was my understanding Hitler had no overwhelming desire to fight the Brits to begin with. If Hitler had taken Moscow, and hence captured Stalin, who would not leave the capital, Russia probably would have collapsed. As you said, Stalin made the near-fatal error of purging the officer corp. If Hitler had read his history a bit more <g> and winterized his troops, history may have been very different. Also as you said if it was not for the American entrance into the war, Russia would have been hardpressed. Stalin repeatedly pressed the Americans and British to open a second front, even after Italy. The Normandy invasion was as much a turning point as Stalingrad, IMHO. The French landings forced Hitler to reroute forces to the West, which could have been put to use in the East...