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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: greenspirit who wrote (42851)7/1/1999 3:04:00 AM
From: Dayuhan  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
All communists are atheists.

Therefore all atheists are communists.

I assume you see the flaw here, so I wonder why you based your post on this assumption.

I just can't see religiosity as an essential condition to respect for private property.

Have you looked at Japan, traditionally one of the least religious of states (Shintoism is more a philosophy than a religion)? Their respect for private property is second to none. Historically, I think you will find that the concept of private property stems more from the political tradition of feudalism than from any religious tradition. The feudal lords, whether in Japan or in medieval Europe, were the first to say that what had been "ours" was "theirs", and to develop the force necessary to impose this view on others. The concept has evolved a bit, fortunately, since their day.

I'm off to paddle my boat. Have a fun weekend.



To: greenspirit who wrote (42851)7/1/1999 8:33:00 AM
From: Bob Lao-Tse  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
"For some reason it seems to take a religious worldview to recognize the wisdom of private ownership of all property."

Sorry Michael but I don't think this is true at all. As Steven already pointed out in his response, you have made the (il)logical leap from "communists are atheists" to "atheists are communists." There is absolutely nothing to support this inference, and I suggest that if you really do believe this to be true you should trot it over to the Libertarian thread and see what they think of it. Libertarians are so pro-capitalism that it scares most people and in my experience they also tend more towards the agnostic to atheist end of the religious spectrum.

I'd also be curious as to how you explain the collectivism in a religious nation of the Israeli kibbutz.

-BLT



To: greenspirit who wrote (42851)7/1/1999 10:34:00 AM
From: Achilles  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
>>The Bible records how Abraham purchased a family burial site from Ephron. Its borders were then precisely recorded and it remained in the possession of Abraham's descendants. When the Jews entered the promised land, the land was divided and apportioned to individual families.<<

But when Joseph was in Egypt and learned that a famine was coming, he prepared for it (as Pharoah's minister) by collecting a portion of the harvest and storing it, which sounds proto-Keynesian.



To: greenspirit who wrote (42851)7/1/1999 3:25:00 PM
From: jbe  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
Michael, FYI (on the evolution of private property):

The Code of Hammurabi (1792-1750 B.C.) recognizes private property, and has numerous provisions designed to protect it. Of course, Babylonia was a "religious" society (if non-Christian). But so too were societies where communal property prevailed.

This suggests that the type of religion professed by a given society is only one factor in determining the form of property that prevails in it, and that other factors (economic, social, and political) are even more important.

If you are really interested in pursuing this question, I would like to recommend the following scholarly report ("Cross-Cultural Correlates of the Ownership of Private Property"):

webzines-vancouver.bc.ca

As the author points out,the institution of private property, as well as the debate about it, goes way back (to pre-Christian times):

The ownership of property is one of the most enduring and widespread topics of social science discourse. From Greek antiquity to the present day, across the disciplines of political science, anthropology, law, geography, history, sociology, and psychology, debate has focused on the foundation causes of private property, on its natural history and evolution, on its social functions and consequences, and on its justice...

In this century, according to the author, some social scientists began to insist on the need to back up sweeping generalizations with empirical data --specifically, statistical data. He then proceeds to examine statistical data collected by various studies of so-called primitive societies. This is from the abstract:

This is the fifth study of archived holocultural data in a program of cross-cultural research to identify the social institutions and behavioral norms that coincide with private property rights. Using Simmons' 1945 data base of 71 societies, a composite index of private rights for the aged, in conjunction with two other indices of private ownership, correlated (p<.0019) with 46 of Simmons' total 217 variables. Replications across all five studies show private ownership to be a positive correlate with agricultural subsistence, social stratification, social control based on law and religion, large populations and permanent settlements, patriarchal family norms, support of the aged, especially aged men, and economic practices of trade, money, debt, metallurgy, and war. Such results can be used to critique theories of property, for example, those of John Locke and George Mead.

The study is quite interesting --if you can stomach that social science jargon (ugh!) -- and also has numerous bibliographical references to major works on the subject (e.g., the above-mentioned Locke and Mead).

Incidentally, I can't help noticing that you have gone way, way out on a limb with your "zookeepers" argument. In my opinion, trying to blend Libertarianism with Christianity is like trying to touch your nose with the end of your tongue.

As I pointed out earlier, Ayn Rand, the Queen of Objectivist Libertarianism, was an atheist, which of course did not prevent her from being a fervent advocate of private property (and of the right/duty to get rich}. At the same time, Christian organizations have been among the most fervent advocates for the poor and disadvantaged (e.g., Dorothy Day & the Catholic Workers).

For that matter, Jesus himself tended to side with the poor against the rich. Wasn't he the one who made the remark that it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven?

(BTW, this is what led Nietzsche to attack Christianity as a "slave religion," the very embodiment, he maintained, of the resentment of the poor and weak directed against the strong and deservedly powerful.)

At the same time, Michael, I'd like to thank you for bringing up this question in the first place. It inspired me to do a bit of research, and I have learned some new things from it.

Joan





To: greenspirit who wrote (42851)7/1/1999 4:59:00 PM
From: Achilles  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
>>For some reason it seems to take a religious worldview to recognize the wisdom of private ownership of all property.<<

Forgive me for taking this remark out of context, Michael, but your remark seems to me to be rather significant. It is significant (I think) not for the accuracy of its assessment of the history of property rights (on which we now have the learned and eloquent disquisition of jbe). Rather, I think it reveals a tendency for us to use religion to protect those institutions that we are most used to. Very few of us have experienced any system in which property ownership does not play a significant role. It is something that we live and breath and the idea of a system in which it does not exist (or more probably in which property rights exists but have a lower priority) is deemed to be unnatural. For someone who is religious, what is unnatural is interpreted as being anti-God, because for him or her religion in many is just as deeply embedded as the idea of property ownership. It therefore strikes you as incongruous that property ownership and religion are not deeply and universally linked within the history of humanity. In fact, however, the links are as ambiguous and varied as this wonderful world would lead us to expect, once we set aside the idea that what is here and now is what has been everywhere and always.



To: greenspirit who wrote (42851)7/1/1999 9:11:00 PM
From: Father Terrence  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
I would suggest that for almost 600 years the Western world was saddled with the mystics of the Church and kings who paid homage to popes and warrior popes. The depths of these centuries are still called "The Dark Ages". Great progress was stalled as the mystics ruled through terror, both psychological and physical. They worked hard to enslave Man's spirit.

The Renaissance and the Great Awakening was a breaking away from the strangleholds of royalty and mysticism. The culmination of the Great Awakening being the creation (by primarily anti-mystics) of the United States of America.

Sorry, Michael, but you have your facts backwards.

FT