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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: jbe who wrote (46002)	7/18/1999 9:36:00 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

OK, point well taken, Jane Austen is my favorite writer of all time. I don't know why people think Austen is just frilly-panties stuff, or that it's just about finding a mate. She writes about accidents, illness, old age, death, and birth, and the struggle to find a living in an uncertain world, and the struggle to become educated against the odds. She writes about the unpleasant future of women who lost their virginity outside of marriage at a time when that made them "unmarketable", not so different from many places yet today, and the almost as unpleasant future of women who marry men who are bad providers in a time when women were not allowed to have work outside the household. Finding a suitable husband can be a matter of life or death. Losing the paterfamilias can mean destitution and ruin. Marrying an unbearable man because he is the only one who asked is a fate not to be envied. It's not all tea-parties and promenading at Bath. Ask the women who live in Iran and Iraq and Afghanistan whether Jane Austen has anything to say to them, if they were allowed to read her.

To: jbe who wrote (46002)	7/18/1999 9:36:00 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Nope- sorry- I think greatness depends on the perfection of your novel, not breadth - although I think Austen has the depth and breadth. The setting does not limit the depth of Austen's insight into people- which I think is very great indeed. I cannot think of any other writer with the same incredible eye for nuance in characters. Comparing moby Dick to Persuasion- is to compare a small perfect Meissen miniature to a great big Wedgewood Urn. Bigness does not greatness make (IMO). And universality is impossible. I don't know what you mean by universality- almost all the women of my acquaintance dislike Moby Dick- it is a man's book I think. I think very few books can be universal between the sexes since women and men are so very different. So in that you do not enjoy reading Moby Dick I find it hard to see how you could rate it so highly. Technically? Subject matter (that admittedly doesn't appeal to you)? Talk about a puzzlement.

To: jbe who wrote (46002)	7/18/1999 10:55:00 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Ah, Joan, I regret to say that I must disagree with you substantially on many points. Frankly, I think Moby Dick is one of the most overrated books written in America. It is, as you note, basically unreadable. I am told by those who study whales that it is bad science in many respects. Its portrait of Ahab is of a very distorted individual and has no relation to anybody in real life. Its main virtues are a) being long, b) being confusing, and c) being essentially unreadable. Those are enough to elevate it to classic status, since the snob-literate aren't willing to admit that they can't read or understand it, so they praise it. (It's the same thing with Ulysses.) Austen's benefit is in very precisely focussing a microscope on basic human actions and emotions. Nearly every woman in the world (sorry for this generalization, but I think it's true) at some point between the ages of 15 and 30, fixiates on marriage. Just as many young men look at young women and wonder "hmm, how would she be in bed and how can I get her there?" many young women look at young men and wonder "hmmm, how would he be as a husband"? And almost every mother hopes to see her daughters happily married. I do think most women worry more about marrying their daughters "well" than worry about their sons. Perhaps because girls commonly start their marital search while they are still at home, while boys commonly wait until after they have left home. The accuracy of these generalizations has been diminishing as the above paragraphs progress, but I think that as generalizations they remain true, despite the number of exceptions anyone (including I) could point out. Austen skewers these very common traits and puts them under a microscope. Her perceptiveness is astonishing. On top of this, she has a wonderful wit, and an ability to draw characters who come vividly to life. I suppose it all depends on how we define greatness. For me, a great book is one which gives me both pleasure and insights the first time I read it, gives me more and different pleasures and insights the second time I read it, and continues to give me more and still different pleasures and insights each time I return to it. A great book is one which helps me understand myself and my relationships with others better. A great book is one which contributes more to my life in the time spend reading it than most other activities I could have used that time for.

To: jbe who wrote (46002)	7/18/1999 10:57:00 PM
From: The Philosopher	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

BTW,. why does Trollope running a close second puzzle you? Have you read more than two or three of Trollope's novels?

To: jbe who wrote (46002)	7/19/1999 9:03:00 AM
From: Edwarda	Respond to of 108807

I'd like to chuck in a few favorites besides Austen and Trollope: Ursula Le Guin, John Galsworthy, Dickens, Chaucer, Chaim Potok, and P. G. Wodehouse for starters.

To: jbe who wrote (46002)	7/19/1999 11:38:00 AM
From: nihil	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

I think that we will have to have separate lists of estrogen and testosterone novels. I was just at a very nice used book sale -- the women were hauling away boxes (at $10) of romance novels. I didn't see a single man -- even Chris -- at the Romance tables. Men were taking boxes of adventure, spy, science, technology, history and military history away --- women fiction, pop psychology, gardening, cooking, and art. Men invest in NASDAQ -- women in .... bonds?