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To: E who wrote (453)9/6/1999 2:21:00 AM
From: E  Respond to of 6418
 
My husband just read that long post and points out that I mixed up some words in one paragraph, the one eight paras down. It should have read:

"Of course you can evade the decision, if you simply substitute an article of religious faith -- an opinion -- (that is precisely what it is and all it is) for the hard job of figuring out an answer to the problem of how one neither makes stipulations that defy common sense nor tolerates infanticide."



To: E who wrote (453)9/6/1999 12:05:00 PM
From: MSB  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 6418
 
E,

I, and I'm relatively sure others as well, can see that abortion is near and dear to your heart. You do make some excellent points, however, in a round about way, the issue of whether an egg fertilized with a sperm is a child or not has essentially been answered with your recognition of the person's* thinking to which you directed the post:

Of course you can evade the decision, if you simply substitute an article of religious faith -- an opinion -- (that is precisely what it is and all it is) for the hard job of figuring out an answer to the problem of how one makes stipulations that neither defy common sense nor tolerate infanticide.

With all due respect, E (even in recognition of some excellant points), I believe that cuts both ways.

With non-aggressive respect,

Mike

*I didn't read the person's post to which your own was made, but having read him on other threads, I feel comfortable in assuming what his position is given the threads where he can (or once could) be found. And though it may not be necessary, my over all opinion of him is favorable.



To: E who wrote (453)9/6/1999 4:43:00 PM
From: Edwarda  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 6418
 
Embryos do become fetuses, and fetuses do become children, and it is hard for civilized people to decide exactly at what point the line between fetus and child should be drawn.

Of course you can evade the decision, if you simply substitute an article of religious faith -- an opinion -- (that is precisely what it is and all it is) for the hard job of figuring out an answer to the problem of how one makes stipulations that neither defy common sense nor tolerate infanticide.


Dear E, let us set aside religion for a moment. You yourself have raised the deeper problem, that of definition. It is not all that long ago that under the law in many areas women were not defined as full persons, African Americans were not defined as full persons, white males without property were not defined as full persons.

On this issue how does one arrive at the most inclusive definition of a "person"? This is the reasoning that lies behind the standard "err on the side of caution" response.

A further thought, one I just posted on "feelies" as well: Philosophically, does the fact that people are doing things of which a society does not approve--e.g., shooting heroin--lead to the conclusion that the practice should be legalized? Like you I am old enough to remember the horrors of illegal abortions, yet I do not feel safe with the conclusion that these horrors justify legal and safe abortions.

BTW, I have always thought that the Roman Catholic Church made a terrible mistake in continuing to condemn both abortion and contraception. It could have moved back altogether from its previous stance on contraception--this pronouncement was not made ex cathedra so it could have been rescinded--while holding its position on abortion. This shift could have made such a difference in the recent history of the abortion debate because of the influence that Rome still holds in so much of the world.



To: E who wrote (453)9/7/1999 2:46:00 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 6418
 
Seeing as how you are currently my favorite atheist, I thought that I should not let this pass without some kind of comment:

First, fertilized eggs are, at least at some point, chickens, although by convention we call them eggs until they hatch. The issue is not one of seeds not being tomatoes, but of their not being tomato plants, which they most certainly are shortly after germination. In other words, at a certain point, there is an organism growing, and the question of where to draw the line. We do not, of course, identify Person and Adult, and therefore exclude children from Personhood, nor do we exclude infants. Therefore, we do not demand that the organism be fully formed to call it human, merely that it be recognizably a stage in human development. Also, an infant, if untended, would die, as would a severely crippled person, and we do not exclude them from Personhood due to condition of dependency. Therefore, we must show logical cause to exclude the fetus, at some stage of gestation, from Personhood. There is, of course, no rationale after the first trimester, since the infant is fully formed, and may be viable with current technology. Therefore, for those who actually care, there is only the first trimester to argue about.

My argument is that although the doubt should be reflected in less severe penalties, there is no difference in logic between the development that ensues from conception to the third month, and that which ensues from infancy to adulthood, they are all just developmental stages, and therefore the procedure should be illegal. To use the analogy I made a while back, suppose that one shot into a form of uncertain status, not knowing if it were alive or dead? What would be the moral status of the act? Pretty obviously, one would have done wrong....Cobalt mentioned brain activity as a good developmental marker, and there is something to that. However, we do not consider those in a coma to be Unpersons, we only consider depriving lifesupport to those in a persistent vegetative state, and we only deem those with clearly irreversible, flatline brain damage to be dead. Since the embryo will develop neurologically under normal circumstances, it is hard to make out that it is much different from any other developmental stage...

.....In any event, I would be much happier if we could limit abortions to the first trimester, so that although I think that you have been overly dismissive of those who locate Personhood earlier than you, I am pleased that you would support some restrictions at least.....