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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: mark silvers who wrote (27686)	10/10/1999 10:34:00 PM
From: Tom Clarke	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

The founders were not hypocrites, Mark. They were proud deists and Freemasons. They found their ideological mentors in the Enlightenment. It wasn't until the 1830's that evangelistic fervor gripped the country.

To: mark silvers who wrote (27686)	10/10/1999 10:44:00 PM
From: Jamey	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 39621

"So help me God." Mark, I don't often post to you although you have made many interesting points. I just wanted to say that I don't believe that you can make a statement that this country was not established through our Christian heritage and beliefs. I had many talks with my Dad who was a combat medic in WW2 and I can appreciate the clergy that supported many groups of our soldiers whose Christian faith allowed them to die for you and me. We have been a nation under God for over 200 years and that is exactly the reason that you were not born into a communist or facist nation. Maybe you don't realize what you are saying because you are young but I for one, as a Viet era vet do not appreciate what you are saying about our country and the founding fathers. I will not bring this up again and I would ask you to not bring it up either. Santiago

To: mark silvers who wrote (27686)	10/10/1999 10:59:00 PM
From: PROLIFE	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Much of it is just the fact that you have not opened yourself you God's word so you cannot see what they were or what they were doing. Many of the quotes that you have thrown back at me are one liners that could have come from anything, or meant anything. I have tried for the most part to show at least part paragraphs(not always possible i admit,). It mattered not that you say that their intent was not to create a "Christian Country" as you call it, what matters is that Christian men gave you your freedom to worship, same as God gave you freedom to walk away. I have shown many and have many many more quotes from our founding fathers(not just one or two blurb from one or two men), that proves many were followers of Christ.... if they were not then they were tearing down their own houses right and left...haha. Do I want men in Washington to tell me what and Who to worship? No I don't. Neither did the Christian men that founded our country. I know what you are thinking. You are thinking that does not make sense....well...see above. In fact they went out of their way to make sure it wasn't. The "founding fathers" made sure you had FREEDOM >>>>mark...FREEDOM.... a good reason for many of them to leave England....to escape the church of England. HERE is a nice little writing of Roger Sherman.....know him? He is the only patriot who signed all four of the major founding documents: The Articles of Association 1774, The Declaration of Independence 1776, The Articles of Confederation 1777, and the Constitution 1787. In his own handwriting he wrote: I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and govern all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever. I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause. I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.... I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment. (Lewis Henry Boutwell, The Life of Roger Sherman,William Federer,America's God and Country.)