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Technology Stocks : Softbank Group Corp -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)10/30/1999 9:35:00 AM
From: bobkansas  Respond to of 6018
 
Your anger at CMGI should be irrelevant for making investment decisions. If you do use such as a significant basis for investing in Softbank, then I think you should stay put in CMGI.

As for your other reasons, I agree with all except that I would not count CMGI out of any market they are in. If I were you, I would put more in SFTBF because of the global/Japan outlook of the net. I own both and will continue to do so. My investment in SFTBF is 6 times that of CMGI.

Just my own opinion which is given freely and thus not worth anything. Best regards, BOB MARTIN



To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)10/30/1999 3:25:00 PM
From: swisstrader  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 6018
 
Hey Malcolm...a man after my own heart...I think your post nicely details why I've done what I've done and I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Here's what I did...I own both CMGI and SFTBF, but have a chunk of 9984 and only enough CMGI to spread on a cracker...I also thought that CMGI is/was stuck and the love affair between CMGI and the investment community has cooled considerably...but rather than deep six my entire CMGI holdings, I did carve off half and split it between 9984 and QCOM and I will, over the next week or two consider dumping my remaining CMGI shares...there's old tech (CPQ, DELL, etc), there's old net (AMZN, CMGI and EGRP), there's new net in the form of B2B, all the net backbone and the plumbing and wiring stuff (ISLD, JNIC, FDRY, etc) and finally there will emerge the GLOBAL net players the likes of Softbank (quick, name 3 other truly gobal net firms?!) who own massive chunks of all the above...9984 has carved out a big fat niche in the net space as the only true GLOBAL net player.

I also think the fact that 9984 is mostly institutionally owned vs. CMGI which is mostly owned by individual investors seems to keep the stock fairly stable and is not as prone to panic sellers from the latest Fed action, world economic news, int rates, Q results, etc.

The ONLY thing that keeps this stock down (if you could ever say such a thing!) is the fact that most Americans are very egocentric and still think Softbank is a Japanese Bank of sorts...although 9984 has runnup massively, it is still virtually undiscovered, undervalued and underplayed in the US...my money will continue to flow into Softbank based on my view that it is one of the few virtually undiscoverd global gorillas of the net.



To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)10/30/1999 5:57:00 PM
From: Jonas1  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 6018
 
A more pessimistic analysis

1) Re CMGI vs. Softbank: I sold all of my CMGI in May. Softbank is the only VC I own.

But I wonder if the going may not get progressively more difficult for VC firms like Softbank and CMGI. In the past, the mainline economy ignored the web, allowing "substitute" startups to fill the gaps. I think the barrier to entry of a mainstream economic firm getting on the web is much lower than the B to E of a new startup to break into a specific market and compete against established businesses.

For example, I bank at Fidelity. During the past year, they have done a nice job of getting on the web. They give me everything that E-Trade does, plus the cachet of stability and an established firm. At first their website was terrible, but incrementally, it now gives me everything I want.

I like Softbank because of the NASDAQ play, and the play in Japan, Europe, China, and India, but these countries are still not the US, and web growth may not recapitulate the US experience, particularly as mainline firms in those countries decide to webbify their operations.

So B2B, yes. VCs that are trying to replicate the real economy in cyberspace -- maybe... hopefully, yes, for big profits, but maybe not!

Jonas



To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)10/30/1999 9:07:00 PM
From: Jonas1  Respond to of 6018
 
CMGI vs. Softbank

Malcolm:
Just some points in favor of holding CMGI:

I have been looking over the new Altavista site, including the shopping channel and the LIVE channel, and have been impressed with the AskJeeves site, plus the push to commercialize the butler with Michael Ovitz. Keep checking icast.com, but so far nothing there.

Overall, I think CMGI has been making some progress over the past 3-4 months, despite a stable stock price. It seems that CMGI also may be on a second wind. By contrast, Yahoo appears to have stagnated somewhat, and I'm not sure that E-trade is on a steeply upward trajectory.

Interestingly, on the Raging Bull board, "Michelda" is selling some Softbank and buying CMGI.

Jonas.



To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)10/30/1999 11:06:00 PM
From: Yamakita  Respond to of 6018
 
Malcolm, it's hard to give advice without considering your entire portfolio. I usually tell people who ask to figure out what percentage of their entire port that they feel most comfortable devoting to pure Net incubation plays. With that figure in hand, I would definitely devote it all to one company, and you can guess which one that is. To me it's overlap to have both cmgi and sftbf. Son's plan in much, much more global than Wetherall's--I believe that's a factor the market hasn't yet fully taken into account. Another huge factor is, obviously, relative lack of American participation in Softbank compared to cmgi. That will definitely change as Softbank's plan becomes better known to the American investing commmunity. CMGI is not going to be "discovered"--it was discovered about two years ago, and its valuation metrics show it. That's yet another key difference between the two, imo.

Yamakita



To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)10/30/1999 11:24:00 PM
From: badon518  Respond to of 6018
 
malcolm, you've raised exactly the right question about cmgi's long term vitality. obviously, if cmgi incubates a bunch of second teamers, then it is overvalued. it is just as likely (meaning, imho, that both of these cases are not very likely) that instead of being second teamers, all the cmgi companies will be industry dominators. Far more likely, imho, is that some of the companies will be first team and some won't. and i don't think it will take a lot of first team companies to do nicely for cmgi. but the valution of the cmgi companies is, as you suggest, critical to one's analysis of cmgi. if you think the companies are second teamers, i'd drop cmgi; if not, hold it.

i wouldn't let the residency thing about the dsp influence you. i submitted a conditional offer to wit for a non cmgi ipo, and they imposed the same residency/citizenship requirment.

finally, i don't have the competence to respond to yamakita's analysis, so i won't.



To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)10/31/1999 3:20:00 AM
From: TobagoJack  Respond to of 6018
 
Hi Malcolm, It is a beautiful weather day here in Hong Kong. The market was good last week, the past week­îs work is tidied, plants are watered, dishes are done, windows are open, ceiling fans are spinning, ­©to read­î pile is arranged, bottle of Starbuck­îs Frappuccino Mocca is open, and Nina Simone­îs ­©Feeling Good­î is playing on the music box. I will put in my two bits on your querry of CMGI vs Softbank and then go for walkies with wife to Stanley Market for lunch. Perfect day shaping up.

I will take the querry in parts, (1) will CMGI or SFTBF be the better I-net investment vehicle, and (2) what should I do now if I owned both.

I will review in brief CMGI and SFTBF by (1) Focus ùC what they are doing where and how they are doing it, (2) Structure ùC who they are doing it with, management and partners, (3) Phasing ùC where are they now with the program of doing it and what is ahead, (4) Economics/competition ùC and (5) Valuation.

On what to do if I owned both, (1) orderly retreat, vs. (2) straight forward exit CMGI and buy SFTBF. I note that I do not actually and have never owned CMGI but gorged on SFTBF since early November of 1998 (watched Son since a year before that). Like Badon518, all my holdings tend to be of the first team variety (cheering for the underdog is OK when no money is involved) as life is full of danger already, and like Yamakita-sen, I do have a varied portfolio though lobsided to 9984 by appreciation.

Focus:
CMGI appears to be primarily focused on investing in B2C service sites in the USA with a smattering of holdings in B2B (i.e. Chemdex) and web technology companies. CMGI lately has been making some headway in international expansion (i.e. Hong Kong with PCCW, but really early days). CMGI­îs overall strategy has been one of ­©first entry­î and subsequently ­©copy what we can from SFTBF, given lots of available assets on the market has gotten really expensive­î (i.e. purchase of Altavista).

SFTBF­îs focus has been investing in incubating B2C service sites and subsequently increase shares in more successful companies. SFTBF appears to be successful in more fully exploiting the synergies between its portfolio companies (i.e. E-trade and Yahoo, Yahoo and Geocities) and very successful in ­©globalizing­î its investee companies (Yahoo Japan, Korea, China, Hong Kong, Germany, Taiwan, UK, France, and same again for E-trade). SFTBF has also established itself as a gatekeeper of internet development to Japan and is the partner of choice for new entrants.

SFTBF is also focussed on the build out of I-net infrastructure in Japan: Cisco Japan, Tepco/MSFT JV, JskyB.

SFTBF­îs strategy of group synergy + financial front end + international geography + time machine + cheap capital + political lobbying is convincingly coherent and certainly makes a brilliant story (they should take out advertisements in all the papers and traditional media for one day).

Finally, Yahoo is beginning to make noises in the B2B sector, and SFTBF has a good shot at starting NASDAQ Japan. I note that B2B takes sector specific expertise and Nasdaq Japan takes launch and acceptance.

Structure:
CMGI has a smattering of INTC and MSFT equity involvement and is allied with the likes of also ran PCCW and the like. Its management are OK, visionaries they are not, especially as they continue to sell down their own shares with such enthusiasm.

SFTBF speak to INTC, CSCO, MSFT, News Corp and anybody else as equals. Son is a visionary in our eyes. Son owns 40+% and is not selling out. Management is top notch. Portfolio company management are selectively strong (Yahoo, E-trade, etc).

Phasing:
CMGI needs to internationalize as I-net is definitely a global business, and CMGI has no hope in hell to dominate the US I-net scene, in operations or VC role.

SFTBF, well on its way to full global presence, and is absolutely dominant in Japan for now, viewed as god, while Yahoo is neck in neck with AOL in USA, and within top three in subscribers in all the countries where they have a presence.

Economics:
CMGI Price:Book - 14 x
CMGI Market Cap ùC US$ 9.829 billion

SFTBF P/B ùC 18 x; but what a book!
SFTBF Market Cap ùC US$ 42 billion; difference between a global player and a US player

CMGI debt ùC negligible, as no one would lend to such a company
SFTBF debt ùC loads and oodles, at 262% of capital (duper leveraged pure internet play, but at tiny interest rate ùC we are all playing in the hedge super league thanks to Son­îs name and vision)

Competition:
CMGI ùC SFTBF and every Tom, Dick and Harry that is one click away
SFTBF ùC CMGI, MSFT, Merrill Lynch, Citicorp, Tokyo Stock Exchange, JASDAQ and every Tom ­ð a function of its focus, reach and scale

Valuation:
Who knows what the right measures, comparatives and analytics are, and if I-net tanks, both go down. Assuming cash is king for valuation purpose, then ­ð
CMGI price cash flow = 145.45 now and possibly forever
SFTBF price/cash flow = 64 x for 1999, 253 x for 2000, and 97.5 x forward looking to 2001

SFTBF institutional ownership is tiny and can only grow, CMGI institutional ownership sits at 36%, insiders at 30%, both selling right now.

SFTBF profile (­©wholesaler of personal computer software and hardware peripherals. Also publishes magazines and books for PC users ­ð ­ø quoting Nikkei Investors Watch) is actually only high in our eyes. CMGI is known to the masses already.

Look at www.bloomberg.com and use the comparison chart function on CMGI and SFTBF for both 1 year and 6 months is interesting ­ð
CMGI shares traded within a tunnel of US$ 80 to $ 130 per share since January.
SFTBF traded with a rising slope of US$ 70 to $ 460. We will come back to this point soon.

Assuming I owned equal value of CMGI and SFTBF, what would I do now?

Bob Martin has a good point about holding both, and in additional, who knows what news announcements has in store for CMGI ­ð suppose GE or MSFT decides to buy them out tomorrow? There is upside left in CMGI still and diversification, even in I-net shares is not bad.

Swisstrader sounds like a person who subscribes to taking profit while the profit is good but do want to entirely leave the I-net party, selling CMGI and buying QCOM and SFTBF.

I, like Jonas1, am only in SFTBF, as if we can sleep soundly at night we have not risked enough to make a difference. We can use some reminding that caution is good in cyber space when we have not yet figured out whether it is finite or closer to infinite.

ORDERLY RETREAT vs SUDDEN HURRIED EXIT
I take the view that CMGI will continue to bounce around in its price tunnel and SFTBF will continue to rise but, if the I-net market tumbles, SFTBF will fall faster and deeper than CMGI. Along the way, there will be a sizeable hiccup. If this view is accepted, then ­ð

CMGI closed on Friday at $109, assuming CMGI and all OK I-net shares will rise through the holiday season, I note selling a Call option against the CMGI shares you hold (obligation to sell your shares) in third week of January at US$ 120 will get you US$ 10 per share now. If CMGI rises above 120 by that time, the Call buyer will get your shares for $120 and you keep the $10 premium as well. If CMGI fails to rise above 120, you simply keep your CMGI shares and the $10 premium and do it all over again until called ­ð do this couple of times (assume you bought CMGI some time ago) your CMGI shares will have cost basis of zero.

On the aggressive side, selling a call against your CMGI shares at $120 by January 2001 will net you $30/share now. Not a bad return for holding on a year. Of course, the whole I-net house might collapse by then. CMGI need to collapse to US$ 80 (109 minus 30) before you are losing relative to now. CMGI collapsing to 80 has negative implications for SFTBF as well.

Getting slightly fancier, you can sell a CMGI 2002 January Call at strike price $110 against your shares at $ 44/share premium now, obliging you to turn over your CMGI shares at $110 2 years from now, and sell CMGI 2002 January Put at strike price $50 (obliging you to buy at $50.share 2 years from now) at $ 8/share, resulting in total receipt of US$ 52 in premium today and go buy SFTBF warrant of any long duration (or buy SFTBF shares outright for simplicity and safety). This would effectively selling 48% of your CMGI (52/109) on contingent basis and taking a leveraged bet on SFTBF (leverage on a leveraged vehicle, nature of the game) at the same time. If the I-net market tanks, your SFTBF warrant becomes worthless and may have to buy CMGI at $ 50 even if it falls to $25. But CMGI at $50 is a probably buy anyway.

Bottom line, exit CMGI gradually (as it still has upside) and increase SFTBF holdings more rapidly (as time is running out before 9984 is a familiar number). The volatility in I-net may enable you to keep a good chunk of your CMGI and increase you absolute shareholding in SFTBF.

I hope I do not sound like a preacher through the distance of cyberspace, and do not sound too conservative given I just read Barron's and Business Week (general debt level in the economy as a worrying issue) again.



To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)10/31/1999 4:36:00 AM
From: TobagoJack  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 6018
 
Finished reading Barron's. Japan's recovery appears real (good for SFTBF and bad for CMGI). An afterthought. Suppose your cost basis in CMGI is US$ 40/share (taking account of the stuff you may be forced to buy at $50 12 months hence - January 2002)and you are ultimately only willing to gamble to lose 25% of your purchase cost, and further suppose you believe there could be a BIG drop, if there is one, within 12 months, then spend $0.88/share (out of your US$ 52 premium from previously noted trades) and buy some cheap insurance for your CMGI in the form of January 2001 Put with strike price of 30 (obligating the option seller to buy your CMGI at $30 if it falls below that number.

The more I think about it the more bullish I am about Japan i-net and economy, even though a tanking US can not be good for Japan though not to the extent people may believe.



To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)10/31/1999 10:41:00 AM
From: mact  Respond to of 6018
 
malcolm, it appears the regulars on this thread have anaylzed ur situation with insight and thoroughness...i too favor softbank over cmgi esp. if i had to choose one over the other for their global vision and "keiretsu"...also, bill burnham will lead the softbank tech. ventures side towards the B2B sector soon, which is sorely needed...they are also investing in backbone infrastructure with their recent deal with TEPCO and microsoft for wireless inet access(also have small stake in ciscojapan and deals with murdochs co. BskyB)...but they need more of these investments, esp. in asia and europe, as the brcd,jnpr,rbak,cmtn,scmr,jnic,crds,xoox,ffiv's have not been discovered there yet...but i am impressed with cmgi's stable of co's(although his recent purchases rely too heavily on advertising and data mining imo...none the less, they are impressive)...here are the most important cmgi co's incubating...i really like altavista,icast,engage,navisite,silknet,blaxxun,chemdex,bizbuyer.com.

CONTENT:
alta vista
icast
lycos
myway
magnitude networks
zinezone.com
raging bull
findlaw
webct

ONLINE INFRASTRUCTURE:
engage
adsmart
adforce
navisite
navinet
flycast
silknet
critical path
onecore.com
blaxxun
1stup.com
1clickcharge

E-COMMERCE:
shopping.com
chemdex
mothernature.com
furniture.com
thingworld.com
nextmonet.comcarparts.com
bizbuyer.com
exp.com
mondera.com
nextplanetover.com

well, goodluck with ur decision...a good dilemma imo.

mact



To: Seeker of Truth who wrote (2157)11/1/1999 6:39:00 PM
From: Netwit  Respond to of 6018
 
Hey Malcolm--I'm in CMGI also. I think the big issue for CMGI is going to be how successfully it is able to make the change from being primarily a VC company to being an operational company. It will take some time for that to unfold. I would hold on to your CMGI for at least a little while. First, iCast should come out soon. Second, the Alta Vista IPO is expected in February. (By the way, I think the US resident requirement is a US Securities Law requirement so you shouldn't take it personally--even though it hurts). Finally, historically CMGI does very well during November, December and January. Last year the returns were: 36.26%, 37.42% and 129.11%. The year before: -5.10%; 44.04% and 19.84%. The year previous: 58.72%, 5.54% and .72%. Past is not necessarily prologue, but I am waiting until March--although I am using trailing stops.